Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Well, I guess I knew this was coming. Dissent will not be tolerated. Forget the safety concerns, the privacy and dignity issues, the managing out of gender non-confirming girls. What's really serious is one leader referring to another leader "a nightmare" in a private conversation.

Girl Guide leaders expelled for questioning trans policy

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/34139ed0-bea5-11e8-8d21-451ec1df6b83

Two Guide leaders who had raised safeguarding concerns about the organisation’s transgender policy have been expelled and had their units closed down.

Dozens of children face disappointment because there is no one else to run the units. The expelled leaders say they will take legal action against Girlguiding if their removals are upheld.

Helen Watts, one of 12 leaders who signed a letter to The Sunday Times in April asking for a review of the policy, was told on Friday that her membership was being terminated after more than 15 years with the Guides.

At least one other signatory, based in the northwest of England, was expelled. Documents seen by The Sunday Times suggest disciplinary investigations have been launched against at least five Guide leaders.

[Edited by MNHQ to remove copyright materiel]

No understanding from Susie Green of the other side of the issue at all. No consideration or even acknowledgement of the impact on girls, safeguarding issues etc.

Susie Green, Julie Bentley, anyone at Girl Guides is this how you have done your risk assessment, on the basis 'trans girls are girls'.?

One question: can a trans girl or trans leader get another girl pregnant?

But then I never listened to what green said as would have had a rage outpouring

Just going on what am reading here now

I've never heard an interview or read an article where Susie Green doesn't reference suicide /self harm statistics.

Given the clear well established guidelines by the Samaritans etc about responsible discussion, it is very concerning.

Susie Green is CEO of a charity with a focus on supporting vulnerable children, young people and their families.

At some point, this has to be challenged. It will be having an effect on the children and young people.

SG says "safeguarding" is about "whoever is in charge" being aware of the issues.

Except any leaders aware of the issues and prepares to mention them are expelled.

Susie Green, Julie Bentley, anyone at Girl Guides is this how you have done your risk assessment, on the basis 'trans girls are girls'.?

Almost certainly.
Precedent was set by the prison service.

That was not bad at all Agnes. You came over well and managed to get some of the more persuasive gender critical points into the interview. Well done. (On that and for everything else you're doing.)

SG says "safeguarding" is about "whoever is in charge" being aware of the issues.

SG doesn't understand safeguarding.
SG understands trans rights policy development and legislation.
The two are different and as can be seen in this case, sometimes in conflict.

That was excellent Helen - you explained things very clearly and calmly. Thank you.

No neutral listener could have thought your points were anything other than reasonable and justified.

Susie Green on the other hand...well any neutral listener will have heard exactly what she's thinks about the rights of natal girls.

I've never heard an interview or read an article where Susie Green doesn't reference suicide /self harm statistics.

Given the clear well established guidelines by the Samaritans etc about responsible discussion, it is very concerning.

YY Rowan. It is breathtakingly irresponsible. But it is emotive and impossible to argue against. They care about winning the argument, not about the effect on young people as a whole.

Agnes, you were really good. One thing that came across from the interview really clearly is that you think (and I agree with you) that girls should be free to sleep away from male bodies if they want to.

Given the audience are probably parents of these girls, the clear message needs to be 'I as a leader, feel uncomfortable being asked to allow male bodied children to sleep in the same tent with girls without getting the consent of the girls' parents'.

Well done Helen. Badly done S G. No surprise there. The woman is as thick as two short planks under a pallet of bricks.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

I have seen some of the social media posts and the theme is - you cant be happy, no-one understands you, you might as well be dead if you cant't 'transform' your body, etc' and the manga-esque comics of weeping teenagers with bloodied bandages is pretty horrific. Create a subculture of self harm and misery then yes, you will see an increase in self abuse - but aren't the stats showing that these kids are more likely to harm themselves post-transition and medication?

Add to that the photos of males who look like worzel gummidge crossed with Danny La Rue on a bad day and all the replies 'you re beautiful!' 'you are a real woman' 'you go girl!' 'you look wonderful!' 'dont let the haters tell you that your not a woman!' 'I'd date you!!' is just sad. Its cruel to let them believe (in their little social media bubble) that they can be a 'real woman', pass as one and god knows, get pregnant?

YY Rowan. It is breathtakingly irresponsible. But it is emotive and impossible to argue against.

And yet Child Protection and Safeguarding principles require that this is challenged.

Jeepers. TELI is off on one on Twitter. Now they're saying THEY were no platformed for not being invited on 5Live or the World At One.

Agnes was excellent, though I think the questioning was harsher than it might have been. This is such a simple safeguarding issue, to be honest. I rather despise the BBC's habit of putting on two opposed views for balance. When Susie Green said that Helen didn't believe trans girls were girls, I thought, Of course she bloody doesn't. Isn't that the issue?

I can even understand where SG comes from, with a severely dysphoric kid who probably would really never have used the hated penis to engage in sexual activity and get someone pregnant.

But what drives me nuts is SG's (a) refusal to acknowledge that this is not the only trans mode possible in males and (b) refusal to acknowledge that neither can girls (or grown women for that matter) know which type of male they are dealing with at any given time (c) nor should they even need to care.

SG is totally caught up in her own bubble and all that counts is what would - in her mind - have benefitted /benefit her kid, no matter the price for others, the rest of the world be damned.

Could we complain to the bbc on the suicide stats point?

Sg may not give a toss, but could we complain that the BBC are breaching suicide guidelines by uncritically broadcasting people like SG.

With a supplementary point that it's not even true?

Yes, I too understand where SG is coming from in her position.

It doesn't in any way make her right. Or a useful spokesperson on safeguarding.

She is justifying her choices. Attack being the best form of defence.

It was striking to contrast the calm and reasoned argument of agnes with the frankly unimpressive waffly twaddle of SG, stuffed full of 'y'knows' and 'sort ofs'.

Also, utter despair at the tired old trope that 'the trans kids are the ones that need protecting.'

Report now in The Sun

www.thesun.co.uk/news/7332923/girl-guide-leaders-units-closed-opposed-transgender-policy/

I hate to say it... but The Sun have been very hot on this and men in womens jails (I have seen others not reported elsewhere vis social media links).

Who is teli?

but trans girls aren't girls in law are they? or have I missed something?

They are, in law and in fact, boys who identify as girls.

TELI:

www.teli.org.uk/