Transman gives birth - wants to be father/parent

[OhHolyJesus]

Ok so this trans stuff is really starting to piss me off. Men competing in female sports, the whole toilet/changing room debate and most recently the selfish ones who say they need a mastectomy more than cancer patients (who happen to be women).

This one though, this one - somehow it's made me think about mothers and why it matters - why can't this transman be registered legally as a mother and call himself a father or parent in all other ways?

I mean he was born a woman!

I haven’t seen that Fekko but I did spot this (reposted from the previous thread):

a male-born person without a GRA (but while identifying as a woman) argued unsuccessfully that it breached their human rights not to be able to put themselves down as ‘parent’ or ‘father/parent’ on their (naturally conceived) kids’ birth certificates.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2015/990.html

So from a quick read through the judgement, if this father failed to convince that human rights were breached by not being able to be listed as something other than ‘father’, perhaps it’s not looking very hopeful for this more recent case wanting to not be listed as mother.

I just don’t know if they will be able to successfully argue that social attitudes has changed so this kind of legal validation via other people (such as their child) must be provided.

The birth certificate is for the child not the parent. WRT surrogacy, I hope it remains the case that the birth mother is on the birth cert. I don't like the idea of wombs for hire and can envisage some coercion there in the future. I honestly can't understand how someone who claims to be a trans man can happily conceive, gestate and birth a child without dsyphoria kicking in. It's about the most female thing you can do! And no matter what the law considers that person as now, male or female, that person was the baby's mother, and the child has a right to have the correct information on his/her birth certificate.

I guess pregnancy is female in the way erections are male?

So...not at all, according to the owners of ladypeen and manwombs?

Being a man is all in your head I guess. So if you are a pregnant man, then pregnancy is a male thing for your body to do.

It’s bollocks of course. But I think that is the rationale.

This will be a strategic case. I'm convinced it's deliberate.

There is an enormous push to blur the differences between the sexes. And it's coming from the men, not the women.

The number of women identifying as men who get pregnant must be tiny. I hope no judge deems it worthy of a law change.

What I really wish is that we had a team of lawyers who could sniff out the agendas and present an in-depth counter argument, which detailed all the possible future implications.

Because I'm sure they are manifold.

I was thinking back to threads on here a year or so ago. Most people talking about toilets, prisons, and sport.

And also the erasure of women. But the mechanisms by which this is being done are so sneaky and creative, I don't think most people envisaged all these different ways.

@BeUpStanding wow that BBC doc! The level of selfishness and delusion is astounding to me. Neither one of this couple seemed to be trying to look more masculine to me, apart from when they were dressing up (and can't you just say dressing up, essentially that's what cosplay is, you can't just invent a new word to make it sound cool). They hadn't had facial surgery or short haircuts (yes men can have long hair but if you want to look like a stereotypical male I'd say short hair was your starting point).
There's so much to pick apart but I won't even attempt it - I'm just glad that the registration rules for the birth certificate remain. By all means change your gender after having a baby but I don't think a cocktail of hormones and sleepless nights are going to make parenting any easier for you.

Hey hey hey. Let’s leave being shitty about cosplay out of this please

complex rules which require people who give birth to be listed as mothers on birth certificates

Complex rules?? if you give birth, you are a mother!! FFS.

He argues that as he was legally recognised as male at the time of the birth, it is incorrect to describe him as a mother.

That's bonkers. Legally recognised as male? he can't have a GRC as male if he's pregnant can he??

Why is he banging on about this? Surely he should be happy he has the child he wanted. He should be getting on with it and parenting. And it's his CHILD's birth cert he wants to change - not his own. Madness.

You certainly can have a GRC that states you are legally male, and then go on to be pregnant and give birth. A GRC doesn't need any surgery or hormone treatment to be done before it's granted. It's very possible to retain your female reproductive system and then make use of it.

A man can have a GRC and go on to rape multiple women and assault children.

A woman can have a GRC and go on to give birth to 6 children. Breastfeeding them all.

They will, however, be considered the opposite sex.

Hey Jesus, it's quite breathtaking isn't it? It baffles me how anyone can take them seriously.

It's such an isolating situation to put yourself in - to deliberately cut yourself off from women whilst pregnant and becoming a mother. I suppose that's also the attraction though, to be special and different.

"Why can't I be the father?"

"Because the baby came out of your vagina"

Really, this isn't complicated.

@BeUpStanding it really is I just can't fathom it. They looked like women who are happily married so like a lesbian couple to me. Both want to transition so the kid will have two fathers. Totally fine with me, go for it. I feel a bit sorry for the kid but he has too loving parents so that's great. Neither one can deny their biological beginnings as the birth certificate will state they are both female. Surely this is better for them so they have a starting point to explain to their son in due course and if they are men/fathers at home this is what the child will know, the certificate is just a piece of paper (an important one obviously) but it's not how someone grows up and views their parent.

Also, I can't work out if it is the most selfish thing or they least. Dorian very clearly wanted to continue with the hormone therapy but also wanted a family so he made that sacrifice or was it worse because he was fuming about father not being on the birth certificate and putting that label above/before the child.

It does make me think what made both of them feel so uncomfortable their bodies as women and if it was so important why it would be a good idea to focus on that before starting a family - be happy in yourself before adding a child into the mix.

Big had the right body to even carry a child but if you hate being a woman so much, become a man, get your GRC, be married and happy etc then get a surrogate or adopt once you're sorted yourself out. Somehow the timing of it all is at the centre of why I think it's so selfish.

I'd imagine transitioning is pretty testing so why make it even harder by having a baby in the middle of it all?!!!

@Batteriesallgone ok cosplay is not something I'm into but looks kinda fun. Chestfeeding however, I'm going to have to say no to that.

Point for the good side of female socialization in that Dorian got upset about things that happened in the hospital but rather than going on an angry, vengeful rampage and trying to get staff fired decided to focus on the fact that now there's a baby, which is what Dorian had wanted, so let's get on with being a parent and bonding with the baby.

I haven't rtft but how will they register the child's birth at all?? What box will they tick for the question what sex is the child?? Because sex is still used on birth certificates not gender. Are they really going to accept the sex the midwife "assigned" at birth. Maybe that will be the next campaign to do away with the sex question on all birth certificates.

They can’t, until the biological mother gets over herself and realises that this isn’t about their identity, it’s about their child’s right to a legal identity which their prevaricating is preventing.

*themself not herself. Didn’t mean to cause offence.

‘Ladypeen & Manwomb’ - Fox & Owl’s next rebrand.

I really struggle with the picking and choosing aspects of all this. And that BBC video really surprises me because I’ve been socialised as a woman and cannot imagine being so self-centred and rude to someone like a midwife who is simply doing their job and who says things like “pregnant woman” 1,000 times a day. It’s not a personal attack. I feel bad for the staff who have to focus on pronouns rather than safely delivering a baby.

Haha no worries OP.

But in all seriousness I don’t think theres any need for ad hominem attacks. This is stir crazy on its own merits.

Manwomb - mangina, has a certain ring to it, don't you think?

TerfsUp isn’t that what they call it when men (usually trying to be funny ) tuck their bits away and pretend to be a woman and then for some reason put it online?

Hmm will they claim Maternity Leave or Paternity leave?

With hindsight I should have got DH to identify as a woman when the DC were born, he could have had the full 12 months maternity leave (civil servant and I’m a sahm so it’s not like I was claiming anything).

I have no idea, YeTalk. It was just a word that I thought would be appropriate. But now I am starting to regret that idea...

BeUpStanding

I just watched the program... mostly with an open mouth.

Is it wrong that I kept thinking that with better literacy criticism skills they may have a deeper understanding of Wilde's 'A Picture of Dorian Grey' and perhaps not idolised the central character quite so much?

(I am also noticing the phrase 'I want' / 'you must' seems a recurring refrain within trans rights activism)