Women on the left are responsible for austerity

[CarrotyO]

I've heard it said that women on the left actually support and are therefore in some way responsible for austerity. This is because both Labour and the Tories support austerity. Therefore any woman who supports Labour, or the Left in general, also knowingly and consciously supports austerity and are therefore also responsible for the 1000s of deaths of disabled people caused by austerity. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Weird that no one is engaging with my central points re Lisa’s argument - that Wpuk women are in some way responsible for austerity

Weird that I have, Red has, and several others have. All with care taken in detailed posts. Weird that you seem to have missed them.

I'm far more interested in seeing people held to account in a court of law than I am in seeing them involved in a dramatic j'accuse scenario on Twitter (or indeed Mumsnet, and much fun as some people seem to find that).

This is my position and I won't be changing it for anyone:

I will not throw any woman under the bus as a target for extremist transactivists without feminist back-up from the sisterhood. Not Posie, not you Carroty, not even some poor handmaiden who believes TWAW and has made some petty misstep. No woman.

If you think that's condoning racism, you go on and think it. I really couldn't care less.

You've also called women who disagree with you racist in the other thread, and implied that disagreement with you means they don't want women to be empowered in this one, which doesn't exactly come across as a stunning example of good faith and fairness

Not true. Those were my observations based on conversations I’ve had with women on this issue. Some women see islamophobia, and some really don’t.

You made a vile and obviously unfounded accusation against me. You have not have the good faith to retract it. You have not responded to my request to do so.

Why?

Weird that no one is engaging with my central points re Lisa’s argument - that Wpuk women are in some way responsible for austerity

If the particular women in WPUK helped maintain the consensus on austerity and prevented meaningful discussion on it, as Lisa says, of course they are co-responsible for the maintainance of austerity and the consequences, including deaths.

How is this even controversial?

Chomsky once said about Empire, that the fact that the empire doesn't even register when it destroys life in pursuit of its goals, like trampling on ants, the 'not even registering' part doesn't make it any better.
This discussion reminds me of his words. Only here it is class and entitlement, not Empire.

It may be the concept of more than one person/group of people sharing collective responsibility for bad/dangerous policy that OP is struggling with.

I'm not sure why that struggle is supposed to be anyone else's problem.

I think this thread has a number of levels going on, of which I’m only aware of one or two. It’s quite uncomfortable because I feel like I am disagreeing with people i normally feel a great deal of kinship with and I’m not sure if this weird thread is worth endangering the sense of solidarity we all feel over the dangers of self Id...

If I was a cynic I might wonder if endangering that sense of solidarity was part of the reason why not only was this thread started but the one before it was almost derailed just as it became clear just how vital that thread had been in opening many women's eyes to dynamics that had previously been unclear to them.

If the particular women in WPUK helped maintain the consensus on austerity and prevented meaningful discussion on it, as Lisa says, of course they are co-responsible for the maintainance of austerity and the consequences, including deaths

Do you have any evidence of this? Had Lisa provided any?

You don’t think that smearing women running a campaign at great personal risk is affecting the solidarity of our movement?

You don’t think that posting racist tweets is affecting the solidarity of our movement?

I will not throw any woman under the bus as a target for extremist transactivists without feminist back-up from the sisterhood. Not Posie, not you Carroty, not even some poor handmaiden who believes TWAW and has made some petty misstep. No woman

Wpuk were clearly not willing to throw Muslim women under the bus! But people are happy to continuously undermine them as a result of this.

Can I just clarify that people here agree that women acting on anti-racist principles did so to bolster party politics and are therefore responsible for the deaths of 100,000s of disabled people resulting from welfare cuts?

'Do you have any evidence of this? Had Lisa provided any?'

Lisa has specifically said on here (did you miss that?), she is not interested in going there, as she does not want to derail WPUK, which she thinks is in principle a good thing. But she has no qualms about naming the particular people if need be. And they are the same people who publicly cast out Posie Parker. So maybe you ask her, if you want her to name those names.

I very specifically remember Lisa naming people in the media, though, on her you tube channel, like Owen Jones and Sarah Ditum, who prevented discourse on austerity.

No, nobody is going to "clarify" the position that you have invented for you. And I think you know that, so I'm curious what the point of this whole exercise was.

Also, "welfare" - are you American?

If I was a cynic I might wonder if endangering that sense of solidarity was part of the reason why not only was this thread started but the one before it was almost derailed just as it became clear just how vital that thread had been in opening many women's eyes to dynamics that had previously been unclear to them

Yes if I was a cynic i would say that this looks an awful lot like when Posie Parker was targeted, almost as if Lisa M was being lined up to be trashed and ostracised. But of course carrotty isn’t doing that, this is just a political discussion isn’t it.

(Under His Eye).

Can I just clarify that people here agree that women acting on anti-racist principles did so to bolster party politics and are therefore responsible for the deaths of 100,000s of disabled people resulting from welfare cuts?

You seem to struggle with logical reasoning skills. A hint: Correlation does not equal causation.

If I was me I would say in response to the idea that GC women as a group are going to be so easily manipulated into throwing Lisa under the bus - not going to happen.

(Also I'm amused that anyone could confuse "my mama bear instincts are fully engaged" with "I am too intimidated to speak out against this truly terrifying working class woman whose activism focuses on protecting other working class women".)

Can I just confirm that personal attacks are OK if people disagree with you?

Also, "welfare" - are you American?

Imagine that: All those -furry- bisons inheriting the Earth...

This may be a helpful reminder

Aside - bison are massive. Magnificent and all, but I'd rather they be magnificent at a safe distance if that's alright with everyone else.

"Can I just clarify that people here agree that women acting on anti-racist principles did so to bolster party politics and are therefore responsible for the deaths of 100,000s of disabled people resulting from welfare cuts?"

If anyone is stating a causative relationship between these two very specific things, I think the welfare cuts bit came first.

Ok. So nobody agrees with the claims Lisa is making. Thank you