MNHQ: I'd like to start a thread about the reality of phalloplasty without it being deleted

[BarrackerBarmer]

MNHQ has already deleted one thread "not in the spirit".

Fair enough.

Please lay out exactly how I can start a thread about phalloplasty, with images (of arms, not of penises).
This is important. Thousands of girls are identifying as boys, and the medical pathway for those girls includes breastbinding, double mastectomies, hysterectomies and phalloplasties.

Guidance from many institutions is unquestioning affirmation.

I want to discuss this. Truthfully.

Tell me how I can do this without MNHQ deleting my thread and I will follow your rules to the letter.

Or tell the thousands of women on this site that we are forbidden from discussing the outcome of SRS for girls entirely.

What are your rules please?

Quite, Datun. We're back to the "sunk cost" fallacy. If your parents socially transitioned you at, say, age seven, you started taking puberty blockers at thirteen, you're coming at the reality of surgery at eighteen with over ten years of reinforcing your desire to transition behind you - that's going to be like reversing an oil tanker.

If someone had sat those parents down with photos of a flayed forearm, and talked them through the risks of necrosis in the neo-phallus back when the child was seven, they might have opted for watchful waiting and neutral counselling rather than instant affirmation.

If someone had sat those parents down with photos of a flayed forearm, and talked them through the risks of necrosis in the neo-phallus back when the child was seven, they might have opted for watchful waiting and neutral counselling rather than instant affirmation.

The single biggest marker of medical transition is social transition.

Bronner78 as Datun said, the issue is that kids at a very young age are told that they can pick their gender and everything can be easily fixed around that. So they are set on a path of transition, without them grasping what it entails, until very late in the game, post blockers. (Heck,they didn‘t even tell Jazz Jennings, that the blockers might interfere with her capacity for sexual sensation and might complicate srs). And this, although the majority of kids who don‘t take blockers, will desist.
That is very different from an adult making an informed decision.

But is it not the case Bronners that male to female surgery, despite its risks, is better practiced and ‘easier’ than female to male surgery.
And the gate keeping you describe to access surgery is under threat from the drive towards self-ID.

Although I agree entirely with the point that transitioning should not even be an option for children. And I question why the psychiatrists and counselling are not helping people with gender dysphoria to come to terms with who they are in the body they were born in. Why is that not the gold standard approach?

I cannot say I understand it, but it seems to me that surgery developed for other purposes including for those with intersex conditions (and now disputed) is being used to prop up the idea that one can change sex.

People are asking how common is this? I can't tell you across the country how many but I can tell you how many gender dysphoria cases there is at my daughters school (as of June last year) - 6, that's 0.5% of the school. I know two of these personally, both identify as male (born female) one saw a doctor privately overseas and took hormones from 14, the other has changed her mind as of this summer and is back being called she as of September. This is my concern - teenagers are vulnerable to influence, life was bad for both these young people and they (or someone) decided their depression was gender dysphoria - except one changed heart once she turned 18 and gp brought her in for an extended appointment to discuss referral, time will tell but she's so much happier than last year

Well I get horrific pain in my breasts, just by wearing a wired bra. OF COURSE it's going to cause pain and tissue damage by binding. We are all women here. We know this.

OMFG

I had Googled I thought I knew what we were talking about but I have just seen that photo on Twitter.

Jesus Fuck.

Materialist that is just AWFUL.

My feminism includes transmen, though it's safe to say that I'm less inclined to campaign on behalf of people who have stuck up two fingers at women and tried to fuck off out of the sisterhood

I've just seen the picture on Twitter. Horrific to say the least, it looks like something a vengeful drugs cartel might inflict on a person. If I didn't know the reason behind the pic I'd assume it was torture.

Simple advice for any school leaders who think transgenderism should be "affirmatively supported":

• Type "Phalloplasty" into Google Images

P.S. Don't do this at home unless you know what you're getting into.

Pictures like that come back from a war zone. We say, OMG I wish for this person to heal fast and we will start a crowdfunder to get them the best medical help and buy them nice things to distract them from the injury and send them and their family on holiday. And we campaign like mad to stop the war and bring our troops home and prevent any more wars ever happening.
.

This does make the question of Self-ID definitions much more complicated. I've said throughout these past years' intensifying discussions that I would ask for procedures that do not require surgery or hormone treatment, but that do show an irreversible permanent change of gender presentation. These few pages does confirm that preference. I've been distinguishing lately in tweets etc between 'old-style' transsexuals who have to permantly transition and frequently include surgery, and the more amorphous transgender 'family'. As I've always found these surgeries abhorrent, what did I mean? I guess I was focusing on MtF where the surgery is not quite so enormously mutilating, it being easier to chop something off than make something out of nothing.

So if we are saying No To Self-ID, what do we want in its place?

Keep the medical diagnosis of dysphoria and compulsory resulting counselling, is my red line. It would need many more skilled and ethical counsellors than we seem to have at the moment. Anything else?
I

Treat the dysphoria as you treat any other mental illness.

Widen the bandwidth of what it means to be male and female in society. Men can be feminine, women can be masculine or anywhere in between. They are still men and women, no need to self-ID as anything other than themselves. Male/female is about access to spaces based on biological need (and risk); masculine/feminine is a social construct.

This was totally possible in the 1980s; it is no accident that a pinkification and pornification of what it means to be female around the millennium has been followed by sky-rocketing rates of gender dysphoria amongst young women. In the 1980s, the social contagion was anorexia. No-one proposed sending anorexic young women to Slimming World and for liposuction.

Apparently they can masturbate to orgasm with the fake phallus? Really? The phallus is just a useless piece of skin sewn onto the pubic area, and there are no testes so obviously no ejaculation - is this the same sort of myth as the trans women periods? As for the arm - horrific mutilation.

Chestbinding is NOT harmless. It harms breast tissue, often leading to later complications. Breast binding is the modern equivalent of Victorian corsets, causing internal damage. The victims (both cases) are female, so nobody except feminists care.

In the 1980s, the social contagion was anorexia. No-one proposed sending anorexic young women to Slimming World and for liposuction.

Exactly! The treatment was therapy. Not surgery, not liposuction, which would have then been regarded as unethical. Why is trans the special snowflake exception? The medical profession don't treat regular body dysmorphics by hacking off the 'offending' limbs.

Sex change is a myth, every cell in your body is coded with your biological sex, what is being done is cosmetic surgery, which is then being enshrined in law as reality. Your biological sex determines various things like how pharmaceutical drugs take affect, or how symptoms of heart attacks manifest. And of course, your role in sexual reproduction, even the choice of opting out (no surgery enables you as being reproductively able to procreate as the opposite sex). The LIE of 'sex change' is that it is a cosmetic surgery, nothing more. The reality of the phalloplasty is particularly gruesome. Stop experimenting on young women!

SandyDrawsBadly - love your work, keep it up!

This Guardian article on penises includes a phalloplasty on a transman.
The image itself is only as graphic as the other full frontals (it’s fully healed) but you can see that a) it doesn’t look much like any of the other penises and b) the donor site scars on the thighs are rather shocking.

There are 100 penises photographed in all, so don’t follow the link if you don’t want to be confronted with them/are at work.
Scroll down to near the bottom for the phalloplasty patient:

amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/may/27/me-and-my-penis-100-men-reveal-all

How can binders not cause problems? No-one who argues that there is such a thing as "safe binding" can really mean it, surely?

a lot of these young people have comorbid mental health problems which, because their self diagnosis of gender dysphoria can't be challenged, are left largely untreated. So double whammy.

Daily Express article on the soon to be started Govt. Enquiry into the increasing numbers of children and young people seeking transition:
(extract)
"Equalities Minister Penny Mordaunt has asked officials to investigate the reasons for the dramatic 4,415 percent increase – and wants to know if the internet could be influencing the way girls think about the issue.

Figures indicate the number of children referred for gender treatment such as hormone injections has increase from 97 in 2009/10 to 2,519 in 2017/18.

Most strikingly, among girls, the figure is up from 40 to 1,806, meaning girls are currently far more likely to seek to become boys than vice versa.

In total, 45 children were aged six or under, with the youngest aged just four.

Sixty-three percent of them had one or more diagnoses of a psychiatric disorder or neurodevelopmental disability before announcing they wanted to change gender.

Nearly half of them had self-harmed while 50 percent had undergone a traumatic event such as bullying or sexual abuse.

Last year 800 children in England unhappy with their gender received puberty blocking injections, including some as young as ten.

Dr Lucy Griffin, a consultant psychiatrist at Bristol Royal Infirmary, admitted she was 'extremely worried' about the long-term effects such medication would have on youngsters." (continues)

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1018407/gender-transition-treatment-investigation-penny-mordaunt