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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mail article; Karen White ‘gender change was a sham’

122 replies

Winterlight · 14/09/2018 23:37

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169813/Rapist-Karen-Whites-ex-girlfriend-says-gender-change-sham.html

OP posts:
Aeroflotgirl · 15/09/2018 11:23

DM brings difficult issues to the forefront, like this, and like the grooming, that the other liberal left papers, such as the others do not!

DoctorTwo · 15/09/2018 13:10

Males need to be segregated from females. Two biological sexes, perfectly clear.

Completely agree @ErrollTheDragon. Keep penes out of womens' spaces.

#womendon'thavepenises

doedoe90303811 · 15/09/2018 13:15

"They're not going to party because I don't think there are any in prison, but also they're giving them a choice. "

Yes there are, and no they're not giving them a choice, they're actually REFUSING to sending them to male prison, because somehow they seem aware that a 'transman' in a male prison is certain to be sexually assaulted.

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/3181313/carlos-delacruz-falkirk-fake-willy-prison-male/

And that's WITH a GRC.

groundcontroltomontydon · 15/09/2018 13:34

Was it a ECHR ruling that originally led to the GRA?
The judgment was pre same-sex marriage legislation. Inability for partners of same sex to marry was a big focus of the judgment.
O and the govnt is fine with ignoring ECHR judgments when it suits - eg blanket ban on prisoners voting. (Politicians - and Eurosceptic journos - are great at blaming and misreporting the ECHR.) The govnt also seems to have conveniently forgotten its obligations under CEDAW. (Sorry for bad typing and posting in haste!)

R0wantrees · 15/09/2018 13:46

Yes there are, and no they're not giving them a choice, they're actually REFUSING to sending them to male prison, because somehow they seem aware that a 'transman' in a male prison is certain to be sexually assaulted.

Francis Crook quoted in June 2018 Daily Mail article:

'As more trans women who were convicted as men hope to follow rapist Martin Ponting into female wings, prison governors fear vulnerable inmates could be attacked'

extract:
"Ms Crook, executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform, added: ‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration.

‘Moreover, the process is inherently discriminatory. A woman identifying as a man could not be transferred to a man’s jail because placing a person with female attributes into a prison to live with 1,000 men, all using communal showers and living areas, would put them in serious danger.’ (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

BettyDuMonde · 15/09/2018 14:10

My current count on incarcerated transmen is 2 in England and Wales and 1 in Scotland (based on nothing more than stuff we’ve found online). Two are incarcerated for ‘sex by deception’ and the other for a violent robbery.

Pleased to see that today’s article linked to this older mail one:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

R0wantrees · 15/09/2018 14:15

June 4th 2018 Times article, 'Governors fight putting trans inmates in women’s jails'
(extract)
"Prison governors say that there is a risk to women’s safety if transgender sex offenders held in men’s prisons are transferred to female jails.

In four of the largest male-only sex offender prisons, Littlehey, Isle of Wight, Stafford and Whatton, 34 inmates are living as women, according to Ministry of Justice figures. (continues)

concluded:
Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association, told The Mail on Sunday: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence . . . To put men who declare they are women into women’s prisons would be very damaging.”

The ministry of justice said that “robust safeguards exist to prevent abuse of this system”.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governors-fight-trans-inmates-in-women-s-jails-vg0kpv5q0

R0wantrees · 15/09/2018 14:21

James Kirkup article July 2018 (before the full extent of White's history of violent offences against women and children was available):
'Are female prisoners at risk from transgender inmates?'

(extract)
"Not long ago, I spoke to someone in a senior position in the Ministry of Justice who told me that the risks presented by transgender prisoners in the female estate were not being adequately managed; according to this person, there were several cases where male-born inmates had transferred to the female estate on grounds of gender reassignment, and subsequently committed acts of sexual violence against female inmates. Have either the managers of the prisons system or the politicians to whom they answer taken the issues that raise such fears seriously enough? Again, an open question."

concluded:
In summary, a representative body for psychologists and the leading expert in the field, speaking for other experts, submitted clear and quite extensive evidence to Parliament suggesting that some male sex-offending criminals have attempted to exploit existing gender-change rules for harmful and illegitimate purposes and that others are likely to attempt to do so in future.

Let me put that another way. In 2015, the experts we collectively trust and pay to study the issues arising from allowing people to change gender told our elected representatives that there are non-trivial risks that some male criminals exploit gender-change rules to gain access to, and commit acts of sexual violence against, women. Three years later, a person born male, has been charged with four acts of sexual aggression against women in the prison system.

Did the backbench MPs, ministers and officials responsible for law and policy on gender issues consider the evidence of the experts, the evidence that women in prison were being put at risk? Did they recognise and act on dangers that were not just predictable but predicted? When setting policy, did they take full account of the interests and views of women, including those women who find themselves confined by the state in the prison system?

Or did they fail in their duty, fail to consider the implications of their decisions for the weakest and most vulnerable among us? Did they fail women?"
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/are-female-prisoners-at-risk-from-transgender-inmates/

RiverTam · 15/09/2018 14:39

West Yorkshire again. What is it about that place?

R0wantrees · 15/09/2018 14:44

West Yorkshire and Manchester just keep cropping up...

Datun · 15/09/2018 15:13

I hadn't realised they were any transmen in prison. (I think I was misremembering Nic's report that said there are no transmen in male prisons) .

But that particular Spanish one - it says that she used a flesh and blood prosthetic? But that she hadn't had full realignment surgery.

What on earth does that mean?

Sotiredallthetime · 15/09/2018 15:23

Definitely op to make fake penis.

Might also mean that person still had breasts.

Sotiredallthetime · 15/09/2018 15:24

Definitely not had op to make fake penis.

Might also mean that person still had breasts.

Either way, the male jail would of been dangerous for them.

doedoe90303811 · 15/09/2018 15:26

"What on earth does that mean?"

It just means a dildo AFAICT.

LangCleg · 15/09/2018 15:38

It just means a dildo AFAICT.

But made of what, FFS? A black pudding?

The victims both got thrush, so whatever it was made of, it wasn't hygienic.

Datun · 15/09/2018 15:46

Delacruz, of Banknock, Stirlingshire — who’s lived as a man since age 16 — used a “realistic flesh and blood” prosthetic during intercourse with the victims while the lights were out.

Flesh and blood.

The Spanish delivery driver’s gender is now officially male but he hasn’t had full realignment.

What's it made of? Whose flesh and whose blood.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 15/09/2018 15:58

I wonder why, when bodies are irrelevant to anything, it is the case that transmen are deemed to be at extreme risk of harm if they were placed in a male prison, while when transwomen are placed in womens prisons the questions are around (or SHOULD) be aorund the safety of the women inmates.

It's almost as if there IS some difference but I can't put my finger on it...

I see no reason to segregate people based on a feeling inside their heads which cannot be verified.

In addition, there are clear risks of mixing the sexes in certain circs (all circs to be honest but women adn girls live with it as best we can) >> so protections are there for when we are at our most vulnerable for whatever reason.

The idea that "women do it too" so just chuck pervy weirdos in with women and girls is fucking preposterous and also straight from the MRA playbook.

Prominent trans activism is a mens' sexual rights movement. It is ALL about sex. Andthen the leading figures get shown up as being guess what pervy creeps. Quelle surprise.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 15/09/2018 16:02

Also agree with others,

That the current activism (and for a long time) has been
transwomen are women (literally)
anyone who says they are a woman is a woman (nothing else required)

Karen thingy is a woman, according to EVERYTHING I have seen and also from how policies have been changed for various groups are talking to certain orgs.

On the other thread, there was a poster who said that putting Karen in a men's prison was a "punishment" - the same as putting any other woman in a men's prison that would obviously be unconscionable.

People are genuinely,honestly pushing for anyone who says they are female to be housed with the women, and if there is a risk then the prison service simply need to manage it.

What a load of shit.

Hackedoffwoman · 15/09/2018 16:13

It does appear to have been phalloplasty. The flesh and blood prosthetic would highly suggest this. They seem to have been keen not to use the word penis why would that be? Scottish Trans Alliance gave evidence in the case and used the above term possibly to reduce the charge.

ErrolTheDragon · 15/09/2018 16:15

West Yorkshire again. What is it about that place?

Misunderstanding of the old saying 'there's nowt so queer as folk'?

BettyDuMonde · 15/09/2018 16:16

A BLACK PUDDING!

That made me laugh so hysterically that I was obligated to try and explain myself to husband, between guffaws.

His horrid face at the idea of sexual acts involving a black pudding set me off all over again.

😂😂😂

Datun · 15/09/2018 16:17

Hackedoffwoman

But it says there hasn't been full realignment? So what would full realignment entail? What further surgery?

Hackedoffwoman · 15/09/2018 16:23

Top surgery, full hysterectomy, hormones etc hard to say as there seem to be obfuscation on the nature of the prosthetic but having chatted to my medical colleagues they are of the belief that the individual had phalloplasty.

doedoe90303811 · 15/09/2018 16:32

He didn't have a phalloplasty. The reports are clear 'no penis' and 'unknown object'.

It could have been a black pudding, idk.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5989563/Sex-attacker-no-penis-tricked-women-sex-using-object-lights-out.html

"Delacruz was medical examined while in custody and it was 'found he did not have a penis'"

Unequivocal.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 15/09/2018 16:42

Black pudding actually fits the bill way too well

Flesh and blood
I've not handled one for a while but is pretty firm with a little give?
Girth might be a bit on the large size
?Some of them are way too bendy I know some dicks are bendy but not that bendy!

Black pudding. Good call.

Sorry for sidetrack!