Mail article; Karen White ‘gender change was a sham’

[Winterlight]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169813/Rapist-Karen-Whites-ex-girlfriend-says-gender-change-sham.html

My guess is that Stonewall, as a matter of principle, would not engage with "The Fail".

But in this weird upsidedown world, which of the two is looking like the champion of free speech.

Just a few points here:

'If anything, he was an occasional cross-dresser,' reveals the former partner.

'He usually wore men's clothes — jeans and T-shirts — and often didn't shave.

'He showed no interest in transitioning. It confused me. I didn't know whether to say 'him' or 'her' when I spoke to him.'

There are LOTS of 'transwomen' who are like this. Not just rapists. Danielle Muscato, Alex Drummond.

Stonewall et al promote and endorse them as fully authentic transladies.

Karen's ex is saying 'he is not a real trans because he didn't do these things'. But no way in hell will Stonewall & chums accept that there is ANY requirements on people becoming trans. Certain key Stonewall transwomen are visually indistinguishable from men with long hair.

There were no appointments at gender identity clinics or anything like that, which is what you would have expected,' she says.

'He didn't take any hormones or medication.

This is not required! The system was designed by TRAs to get as many trans-identifying criminals into women's prison as possible.

Nothing she has said would contradict getting Karen into women's prison.

pbs.twimg.com/media/Dmew1EMXgAE0Om8.jpg

According to the resident, White was referred to a gender identity clinic in Sheffield but failed to attend three separate appointments: 'Other than wear a wig and put on women's clothing, he made no more effort.'

Meanwhile, however, White used his alleged transgender status to control other residents in the block, threatening to report any who dared to stand up to him for transphobia.

Bingo! The appointment letters at the GID clinic were overwhelming evidence when he was sent to prison.

The ideology of being transgender is secrecy, covering up the past, pretending it never existed, not asking too many questions, and even making it illegal to ask questions. Don't forget that if Karen had had a GRC (which I believe Karen could have got EASILY), then Karen would have had an irreversible RIGHT to women's prison. And of course the GRC system was setup by TRAs to be as secretive as possible! Nobody's allowed to see your GRC! It's all top secret, if you know that Karen has a GRC then even if it's blindingly obvious that Karen used to be a blurk, then you've committed a criminal offence!

Unless it's understood that Karen White was EXACTLY the sort of person TRAs wanted (and still want!) in women's prisons, we won't get anywhere.

Karen is a genuine authentic Stonewall-compliant transwoman, and it's pointless to deny that.

Once we understand that Karen is a real transwoman, just one who happens to be a rapist, then we will get somewhere in working out how to treat transwomen prisoners.

Yes doedoe. Karen was indeed a real trans woman according to the TRA definition. Don’t let them get away with blaming it all on him being an imposter and a faker. It is dangerous to put ANY male-bodied person into a female prison. Not all trans women are dangerous rapists but nor are all men and we don’t let men into women’s prisons. You cannot start drawing lines between real and fake. Karen White was no doubt as committed a trans woman as someone like Lily Madigan, who has not taken hormones or had surgery either. Why do we say that Lily is real and Karen is fake solely on the basis that Karen has committed a crime? Karen is a trans woman according to the TRA definition and the TRAs want people like Karen to gain automatic admission to female prisons. We don’t have self-ID but this is a problem NOW.

Well done Daily Mail.'she' is indeed a 'he'. You didn't fumble over pronouns, you didn't call him a 'she' to appease the rape and paedo apologists.

Somebody upthread mentioned DM is a paper that does cover rape and child abuse issues.

I remember looking there where all those poor women were raped and abused in Germany (because BBC were too scared to report)
And there was another horrible story about a woman and/or child attacked at a holiday park in France when again only the DM reported - BBC and Guardian were too busy begging for acceptance in the arena of non offence.

Totally agree with doedoe. Saying "Karen was not a real transwoman" still isn't getting to the point that Karen was a "real" transwoman by the definition that lots of TRAs use.

Such a well-written, unsensational piece

This jumped out:

Meanwhile, however, White used his alleged transgender status to control other residents in the block, threatening to report any who dared to stand up to him for transphobia.On one occasion he called 999 to report a hate crime when an elderly resident in the housing complex referred to him as 'he' instead of 'she'. On another, he stabbed an elderly male resident, claiming the pensioner had sexually assaulted him.But White's arrest for that stabbing and a burglary in 2017 came during a period of heightened sensitivity around transgender issues within UK prisons.The Ministry of Justice had just updated its policy 'on the care and management of transgender prisoners' after the death of two trans prisoners in male prisons.Ripping up its previous 2011 policy, the new 60-page policy introduced in January 2017 emphasised the right of prisoners to 'self-identify' and to be treated 'according to the gender in which they identify'. Previously, prisoners requiring such treatment would have needed a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) or to have had a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria.But, citing Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the policy states: 'The primary focus of this policy are offenders who identify as transgender and who have expressed a consistent desire to live permanently in the gender they identify with, which is opposite to the biological sex assigned to them at birth.' It adds: 'Whilst a GRC is proof of legal gender, the absence of it does not automatically prevent that prisoner being located in the part of the estate consistent with the gender they identify with.'

Mango

Yes, by Stonewall's definition he was absolutely a "real" transwoman. Just a a nasty conniving, evil one.

And of course, not all of them are like that, just as not all men are rapists. But how are we to tell who is and who isn't - so.... we segregate by sex. Not by 'belief'

I'm also struck by the topsy turvy world we live in now.

I like the term 'male-bodied' that some posters have been using, and the argument that it probably wouldn't be helpful to go down the real / fake trans woman route.

Peak

Yes, they want us to wait and see if someone commits a crime before deciding whether they were real or fake.

Antithetical to Safeguarding.

The article:

So this it what it takes for someone to believe the ex wife?

My experience of trying to tell that my STBXH's transition is sexually motivated, and not what he presents; has been that I'm disbelieved or vilified. It further fuels his "victim narrative".

I'm not alone amongst the TransWidows to have experienced that.

doedoe9030381 Excellent and important points. It shows up how contradictory the ideology is.

"According to the resident, White was referred to a gender identity clinic in Sheffield but failed to attend three separate appointments: 'Other than wear a wig and put on women's clothing, he made no more effort.' Meanwhile, however, White used his alleged transgender status to control other residents in the block, threatening to report any who dared to stand up to him for transphobia. On one occasion he called 999 to report a hate crime when an elderly resident in the housing complex referred to him as 'he' instead of 'she'. "

Dreadful. But well done the newspaper for pointing it out. The Times has also had some good articles on the general topic too recently.

I think we should leave the gender laws as they currently are.

DM is much maligned on mumsnet but it does deal with some topics other papers avoid including those awful cases of abuse of teenage girls in Rotherham etc which some newspapers just did not bother to report.

I don't normally like the daily mail but I have to say Bravo for that article.

You CAN'T change gender

I just noticed this one too - not about trans issues but protection of women www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169489/Sarah-repeatedly-raped-twice-forced-marriage-EIGHT-abortions.html

Also there is no provision to say 'well Karen is just doing it [a possible GRC] to get access to women to rape' and revoke the GRC.

Once Karen has a GRC Karen is irreversibly a 'woman', and I believe the media would get into serious shit for misgendering Karen and her raping penis or disclosing her birth gender. And Karen WOULD go to a woman's prison. No ifs, no buts, 100% must, absolutely no question or negotiation, into women's estate. Complete with penis.

Transgender ideology is predicated on the idea that 'misgendering' or 'deadnaming' is identical to an act of violence, or that it will precipitate the same, including but not limited to murder. Hence the 'transgender day of remembrance' being celebrated up and down the country commemorating (because there weren't any trans people killed in the UK) victims of (often) drug-related violence in the US (but they identified as trans so that's the main thing).

The next step will be a transwoman with GRC raping women in prison. The only question is whether the media will be allowed to report on it.

I like the term 'male-bodied' that some posters have been using,

Trouble is that TRAs claim that biology is irrelevant compared to how someone “feels”, so what we would describe as a male body would be described as a female body that happens to have a cock and balls.

Total agreement with Doedoe and others saying that there is no distinction between Karen White and a 'real trans person - until they committed a crime and were rejected by the trans community.

The definition of trans that our government is about to adopt includes people who make no effort to change their bodies, even to the extent of shaving. That's what self ID is all about. So I don't accept that Karen White can be decisively identified as 'not trans' now, any more than decisively identified as trans before. This is what many of us have been pointing out - there is no meaningful definition of trans under self ID that doesn't rely on having the ability to read the thoughts in another person's head.

There is no meaningful definition of how a man can turn into a woman, without changing the meaning of those words, and in fact making them meaningless.

This has practical, real consequences for women and girls. We end up with rapists in our spaces, and we are prevented from speaking against them or defining ourselves.

What's really chilling is that the litmus test for whether someone is genuine seems to be to shove them into our spaces, and see if they rape anyone.

BTW, Karen White could apparently be charming until crosses, then snap into anger and violence very quickly. Anyone notice similarities with another person who was on TV recently?

Yes, they want us to wait and see if someone commits a crime before deciding whether they were real or fake. Antithetical to Safeguarding crackpot

I'm just thinking about all the hoops they made women jump through after the Soham murders and CRB checks came in. Despite the stats for females committing crimes against children being rare, all women had to go through the CRB (now DBS) process even to volunteer in a setting where they were never alone with children, even though the stats say they were unlikely to commit violent or sexual crimes against vulnerable people.

But when it's trans, we're not to implement safeguarding practices against them as a group as that would be discriminatory. Even though the stats say that group are no less likely to commit violent or sexual crimes than other males.

One rule for us, no rules for them it seems.

Thanks Bitchy, it is ludricous tgat we are having this discussion. Biologically male, sex offender, penis used to commit his crimes still intact, Male prison. He shoukd never ever have been put in a woman's prison ever, considering his crimes were offences against woman. Whoever gave this the green light should be shot.

I'm sure that some people do suffer from crippling dysphoria and the idea of their self as a man is genuinely traumatising, but the examples I see [I won't names but certain key transwoman political figures for sure] simply have a fetish (a certain police transwoman and referring to her transvagina as a 'Porsche' for fuck's sake, and constant 'I'm more womanly than you' posts with her wife). And as part of their fetish they are delighted they can FORCE us to use their pronouns. Because it very much validates their fetish to do so.

There is no difference between certain would-be green politicians dressing up in their fur suits and dressing up as women - both are role play and not real. It's just that we are told that transwomen are women, we aren't (yet) told that transdogs are dogs. (btw there is a transwoman 'dragon' www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3524063/Transgender-woman-Eva-Tiamat-Medusa-ears-nose-removed-dragon-lady.html so the idea that being 'post-op' or whatever is a guide to authenticity is nonsense - the transdragon is no more a dragon than you or I, they've just mutilated themselves because of a fetish).

And there is a large and growing number of men who have poor personal hygiene habits, no interest in grooming, etc., who have 'transitioned' through their love of My Little Pony, furry porn, etc. so this is not a situation which is going to get better. There are going to be more and more not-even-interested-in-passing TWs as Stonewall successfully expands the notion of what a TW is via characters like Travis Alabanza, Alex Drummond, Stefonknee et al. And some of them are going to be some nasty creepy dangerous fucks.

That Daily Mail article is very well written and researched. I don't usually read the DM as we get The Guardian but I am sick to the back teeth with The Guardian's bias towards the TRA and its acceptance that TWAW.

Karen White is a biological male. End of. So he should never have been put in a women's prison because he's not a woman. P

I LIKE the mail. I warmed to them about eight years when they were the only paper reporting on safeguarding issues that I was concerned about. Guardian, BBC and the rest of the left wing press can just fuck off with their putting political correctness above reporting on issues which affect women, children and than vulnerable.

Agree the article doesn’t go far enough, but it’s very clear and well researched and it’s starting to get across to the general public that actually this is an issue that affects them and not just a lunatic fringe that is best ignored.

At this stage I’m nailing my colours to the mast repeal the GRA, it was I’ll thought out bad law and a relic from a homophobic age. We have gay marriage now it’s not needed.

I wonder if this article is in the print edition.

This case clearly does show we need to get back to single sex services and facilities, based on biology, with 'third spaces' for trans people who would be at risk in with their own sex. I absolutely do think there are 'real' and 'fake' trans people, and that the GRC should exist - so the third space isn't a dangerous free-for-all either. But, that's for 'trans community' to sort out. If there are self ID'd 'TW' who properly diagnosed, transitioning and transitioned TW don't feel safe with, then no bloody way on earth is it ok to allow the latter into female spaces. Male violence needs to be sorted out by males.