Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

If my dad saw that person following me into a toilet even now he'd run in screaming and ready to do battle, and I'm 45.

Aaaalways watching. Aaaaalways watching... are the mates of the ham-forearmed laydeees.

Don't mention the war!

It just isn't 'civil'.

Bah. What did I miss?!

A video you could find by googling 'Two years on… starting the discussion'

"Don't mention the war" is so perfect.

there are a lot of men who feel really irritated by other males not respecting this boundary - for example waiting outside the ladies for their daughter to use them, they would not be happy to see a 6'+ male with fists the size of cauliflowers and wearing a bad wig follow her in. Normal men know this is crossing the line.

Yes, and if there are more and more male-bodied trans'women' entering the womens toilets I wonder how long it's going to be until a man waiting outside for his daughter follows them in. At which point they're probably even less 'safe' than in the mens because at that point they've already angered a father. Because it says 'womens / ladies' not unisex and the fact is that normal people not exposed to the TRA agenda (the vast majority) think that means biological sex not gender feelz. And I'm guessing fathers who are pissed off about someone violating their daughters boundaries probably don't give two shiny shits if anyone calls them 'transphobic'.

To be honest, that's one area where a third option of unisex toilets would be great - Dads out for a day with their daughters alone. I know it's always a bit of an issue for DH and DD1, and with unisex toilets they could just go together.

The problem with the trans inclusive line seems to me to be largely that there is a lot of lying and deception to avoid valid safeguarding questions. If you're going to allow both sexes in the 'womens/ ladies'' then it should have a different label. Because people think womens / ladies means sex not gender. Call it 'feminine unisex' or whatever if you must but be honest in a way that normal people will understand so they know what they're getting.

Unless of course there is some ulterior motive in lying to people in a way which violates their boundaries and takes away their ability to make proper informed decisions. I am sure that can't possibly the case of course.

Don't mention the war!

I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it

To be honest, that's one area where a third option of unisex toilets would be great - Dads out for a day with their daughters alone. I know it's always a bit of an issue for DH and DD1, and with unisex toilets they could just go together.

I made a point similar to that on the other thread. If new and refurbed buildings can include some properly designed unisex facilities in addition to the single sex and existing disabled loos, it's good. Ideally make them multi-function (extra disabled provision, baby change, big enough for parent and children) - then they're a good use of space even if there are in reality very few transgender people wanting to use them.

To be fair hormones aren't going to make a blind bit of difference to some people.

I'm having one of those days where I'm surprised all over again that we are all expected to pretend that men are women who men on pain of a criminal charge or employment disciplinary.

It's bizarre.

I've said on here before - it's a bit like the X Factor.

Simon Cowell gets into trouble for saying "you're rubbish" to talentless hopefuls. Actually, the problem was all the people who'd said "you're great" to that person, not someone delivering the harsh reality (ok, it's scripted/edited/manipulated for trash tv, but, you know what I mean). Maybe we need to be more Cowell and less cowed.

instead of being encouraging to trans women ("so beautiful, so brave" - which is disingenuous. Maybe transwomen of some ethnicities pass, but, your typical swarthy white british build really doesn't) say "you look like what you are, a bloke in a frock" Because, they don't pass, not even after facial feminisation surgery - because the way men move is different because of their differently proportioned skeleton and their balls swinging about.

It would be kinder and more honest to say "Be who you are, which is a bloke in a frock, and, by jove, you be the best bloke in a frock that the world has ever seen".

If we feed the delusion that they pass we are complicit. And, I don't think that's helpful because it leads to far too many hideous selfies.

more Cowell and less cowed - It's a YES from me!

Women don't matter. We are not important. We are so lowly, we don't even flash into their minds when they cross that line. The only thought they give us in that moment is a fear that we might vocally object and hurt their feelings or thwart them getting what they want.

They are deeply sexist and they don't give a shit about us. They made that clear by crossing that line.

This this this.

Call it 'feminine unisex' or whatever
Can we not? I'm not going in the gents because my hair is too short for the "pretty" toilets.
"Women" and "Men" are fine for toilets, thanks.
I'm beginning to think the consequences of choosing to transition (and it is a choice, no amount of emotional blackmail about suicide changes the fact the time, style and method of transition are all choices hence the actual choice to transition or to just "identify as" is a choice) are not ours to solve.
It's not my problem if people don't think you pass. It's not my problem if people don't want to have sex with you. It's not my problem if your appearance makes others uncomfortable - and you're not the only one who has to live like that. However unlike someone with a disfigurement, for example, there was a choice involved to look like that. I mean, technically how I present myself is a choice. If I had to "feminise" myself I'd be really uncomfortable and unhappy so I don't. But I'm self-aware enough to know I can startle a woman if she catches me out the corner of her eye. I do my best to be in and out of public toilets quickly, and I'm obviously female. That literally is my problem, I have to deal with it, I make my own choices.
Choosing to "come out" as trans when you are a middle aged married man with kids has consequences, again, not my problem if you end up divorced with limited access to your kids. Your choice. We all have to live by the choices we make. If we choose a high powered job we might enjoy a good wage but no family time. If we choose to emigrate we might not be able to care for elderly parents. If we have an affair we could get caught out and lose our relationship/home/family. I don't see why the negative consequences of that decision are somehow society's to fix. If you invest in a pyramid scam and lose your shirt, taxpayers don't reimburse you. If we have processes and surgeries in place for someone to look like an approximation of the opposite sex, and they want to do that, good for them. I'm not going to enable their decision, remove any consequences, and police everybody's reaction to them.

Turph that was awesome.

What the fuck did datun say!!!!!

Can we not? I'm not going in the gents because my hair is too short for the "pretty" toilets

I'm beginning to think the consequences of choosing to transition...are not ours to solve

I dont really understand how someone's transition means that i have to go through a transition of my own

From using the ladies loo to 'having' to use a unisex one because im not feminine enough to use the womans

From being a women to now being a menstruater

From being a woman to now being a cis women

From being a women with PCOS to being trans

From being someone who diesnt believe gender is innate...to being trans again!

Im sure there are more that ive fogotten...im supposed to redefine myself beacuse someone else wants to redefine themselves...
It doesnt seem to happen anywhere else

Yes Rufus : wow, no messing about there

Was that post of Datun's the one with the feminist poem?

WTF was wrong with that?

datun got deleted!

Was it for......the....POEM?

Lol

Alert West Yorkshire Police!
They're phobic in rhyme now

It's PHOETIC

POEBIC

subVERSEive

It's a HATE cRHYME