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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debbie Hayton in the Times

748 replies

Igneococcus · 13/09/2018 06:22

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

OP posts:
WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/09/2018 19:22

If there is one thing Debbie has demonstrated, it's a willingness to debate with feminists - even at personal risk.

Turph · 19/09/2018 19:23

As far as I can tell T makes you bald, angry, and hairy. And gives you cancer.
Yeah but if you don't mind bald, hairy and angry it's got to be empowering. Getting physically stronger, putting on muscle, passing as male (not always but more than MtFs do), interesting hair growth in weird places - you can see why they feel the need to document every hair that sprouts on their scarred chest because testosterone does foment some drastic changes in a person. In a man, the supplementation of T can make them twice as big as they would otherwise have been from working out, in a woman it can completely transform her, as described above. I always found it very odd watching dyed in the wool lesbians cheering on "male puberty" in a trans man, celebrating what they find unattractive, forgiving the teenage outbursts, and in some cases allowing speech they'd happily get a man sacked for. Some swaggering FtM yelling "where's my bitches?" is pretty cringey, and don't get me wrong, I know how cringey butch lesbians can be too. Our approximations of masculinity are sometimes as far off the mark as a pornified AGP's attempt at femininity.

Turph · 19/09/2018 19:25

If there is one thing Debbie has demonstrated, it's a willingness to debate with feminists - even at personal risk
Agreed

LangCleg · 19/09/2018 19:35

So what if it was Debbie?

Fucking social media ghouls, trawling everyone's tiniest word for evidence of wrongthink or - shock, horror - evolving views.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 19/09/2018 19:38

If there is one thing Debbie has demonstrated, it's a willingness to debate with feminists - even at personal risk.

But if the debate isn't in good faith, what's the point?

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/09/2018 19:48

I think it makes more sense to take Debbie at face value that speculate any other motives.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/09/2018 19:51

than

LangCleg · 19/09/2018 19:54

I refuse to live in a world where everyone's entire life history is pored over and parsed in the service of j'accuse. Fuck that.

IAmLurkacus · 19/09/2018 19:54

I have no opinion if that was or wasn’t Debbie. I’ve always been of the opinion that Debbie’s skin in the game was that she had the intelligence to realise that ultimately the tactics of the TRAs were going to result in a MASSIVE backlash, so she stepped up from self preservation. I don’t always agree with Debbie, but I like Debbie as a human being and have a great deal of respect for her.

ArmchairAnnie · 19/09/2018 19:56

I refuse to live in a world where everyone's entire life history is pored over and parsed in the service of j'accuse. Fuck that.

Quite an amusing statement on these boards

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/09/2018 20:34

Quite an amusing statement on these boards

There have been a number of threads along the line of 'I used to argue in favour of [insert antifeminist bullshit masquerading as feminism] and now I finally get it.

Posters are always supportive and forgiving.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 19/09/2018 20:35

I am taking Debbie at face value. Debbie has been writing about the dangers of self id, while being self id themselves. Debbie has said that they understand why women and girls would be uncomfortable and potentially unsafe with self id transpeople in female spaces - yet is happy to be a self id male transperson in those spaces.

I'm not sure it's healthy or productive to debate with someone who says one thing, and does the opposite.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 19/09/2018 20:39

I will add, that I don't care what Debbie wrote on a forum years ago, but I do care about Debbie's actions now, and the influence Debbie may have in women's rights organisations.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 19/09/2018 20:40

I'm not sure it's healthy or productive to debate with someone who says one thing, and does the opposite.

If they become more consistent and aligned then the debate has been worth it I suppose.

I think Debbie hadn't really thought it all through. I always wondered what Debbie meant by 'accepted'. I couldn't tell if it was 'accepted as a gender non-conforming male', but now I realise it is 'accepted into female spaces and accepted as a woman'. Its been an eye opener.

AngryAttackKittens · 19/09/2018 20:49

If Sprout told me the sky was blue I'd go outside to check, so...anyone who trusts that man is a fool.

Agreed though that Debbie has clearly seen the backlash that's coming as a result of TRA overreach and is acting out of personal interest. Which is not exactly unusual, it's just useful to keep that in mind when evaluating someone's positions. There's also been a significant shift in GC spaces within the last year from a more placating tone to one that's much firmer and more determined to take a second look at the issue of any male people in women's spaces, even the nice ones, and Debbie most likely didn't notice that happening and was shocked to encounter it. Will be interesting to see what comes of that. I think that any male who really is serious about respecting women and our spaces will eventually come to the same conclusion Miranda did (that they have an ethical obligation to remove themselves from those spaces).

LangCleg · 19/09/2018 20:49

There was no point in posting that tweet here. Debbie wrote an article making a case. Debbie came here to defend it. Debbie was robustly challenged on the article and the defence of it. I agree with the challenges.

This thread is hardly full of sycophantic posts in support of Debbie to which Annie has cleverly posted a gotcha. It's just nastiness for the sake of nastiness.

AngryAttackKittens · 19/09/2018 20:53

Yep.

BeyondAnOmnishambles · 19/09/2018 21:10

I'm having to speculate here as I haven't asked Debbie, but my assumption is that Debbie doesn't think Debbie self-IDs, as the IDing bit has been done by a doctor rather than by Debbie themselves. Iyswim?

When Debbie complains about risks of self ID, Debbie is thinking of the men who will randomly claim to be female, rather than those diagnosed with GD?

ArmchairAnnie · 19/09/2018 21:11

It's just nastiness for the sake of nastiness.

Hypocrisy central on Mumsnet tonight.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 19/09/2018 21:18

Debbie must know that 'self id' is usually taken to mean 'doesn't have a GRC'.

I think the tweets and links to forum posts is as much a warning to other transpeople who may want to join the discussion, as a way to kick Debbie.

AngryAttackKittens · 19/09/2018 21:19

That would be my assumption too, Omnishambles, that to Debbie "self ID" means "has never been diagnosed by a doctor".

AngryAttackKittens · 19/09/2018 21:20

I think the tweets and links to forum posts is as much a warning to other transpeople who may want to join the discussion, as a way to kick Debbie.

Trying to stir the pot in such a way that everyone feels insecure and unsafe is what Sprout does, at least when direct threats haven't been working.

BeyondAnOmnishambles · 19/09/2018 21:20

It's another one of those things where working to common definitions would be handy... Grin

seafret · 19/09/2018 21:22

On that twitter thread, I see the trans flag is flying over Liverpool.

We need to get a women's flag and see what excuses they come up with not to fly it.

The problem I think will be that many feminsits will not be so domineering as to pick one with some sort or democratic process so we wil never end up with one that all women can support.

Perhaps we can be pragmatic gievn the time pressures and pick one quickly using a survery monkey or somesuch on the proviso that we change it again later by wider democratic vote.

Half joking, but actually not really..we are waaaay behind on this. They have had the advantage all along. Grrr. V angry tonight.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 19/09/2018 21:36

armchair

Why are you being mean and ploppy tonight?

Have you answered langs question on the other thread?

You may have missed it...