Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

I dont know why i said tonight there

Here is our flag. So, Debbie takes away a woman's voice when Debbie speaks for women. In London there were many women who wanted to put questions and comments from the floor but two transwomen took up a lot of time available with scripted contributions.

No transwomen are 'coming to our aid'. They are protecting themselves. They didn't speak until their own position was threatened then when they did, perhaps they enjoyed all the 'thank you's. They certainly aren't in it for us.

Can't imagine any feminist objecting to that flag, Charlie!

I see Liverpool are voting on a plan to introduce gender neutral toilets in all public buildings. Seriously, the people of Liverpool would do better to campaign and get that new hospital standing empty and unfinished since Carrillion collapsed up and running. With new fire proof cladding of course. *Priorities

(apologies as I can't remember who submitted this request)
"Merseyside Police FOI response:

"In the 2017/18 financial year,
five Crimes have been identified
which relate to sexual offences
occurring in a unisex toilet or
changing facility.
These comprise:
4 X Voyeurism
1 X Rape Of Female"

Additional note: "The search returned 62 records which were then manually reviewed in more detail (including a read-through of witness statements) to try and determine whether or not the circumstances were relevant to this request. Some were still unclear as there was just a reference, for example, to the offence occurring “in the toilets” or “in the changing rooms”. These have not been counted. Even where a unisex facility has been counted, its relevance may be tenuous – for example, a changing cubicle in a clothes shop which is available for use by persons of either gender. It should also be understood that other relevant records may be held which were not captured by the keyword search method employed"

www.merseyside.police.uk/media/1508630/sexual-offences-in-unisex-toilets-dm2018-0475.pdf

There's discussion of the Liverpool loo thing on another thread - it sounded from what I read there more like encouraging developers and businesses to add some unisex facilities. If so - and if done right - then it might be reasonable '3rd space' provision.

Adding facilities is never a bad thing. The question is what percentage of trans people would agree to use them.

Thank you for that Charlie Bloody hell, I am thick sometimes often.

Lets ask for that that then

I’m another one who was saying some of this stuff months or longer ago and is relieved to see scales dropping from other women’s eyes. I was told I was wrong (pretty courteously, but firmly) on these boards for objecting to Miranda and other transwomen being given space at meetings over women, and to the whole concept of ‘good transwomen’ who were on our side (this was before Miranda said she would no longer use women’s spaces, for which I hugely respect her).

I think being lesbian gives you a head start in this. I’ve noticed that compared to many straight women I see through male entitlement and bullshit quicker, and being lesbian means it’s easier to prioritise women as a matter of instinct.

I don't think it's helpful to have any male transpeople talking at women's meetings about this issue.

Women's voices should be enough and there is a danger that any decisions made will be partly for their benefit and not women and girls.

I can see how it's happened - the desire to be seen as reasonable and to prove that the problem is abusive men and not transpeople. But I think we need to be honest and say that we need to focus on women and girls and not trying to find the impossible compromise that keeps everyone happy and safe.

Venice, Anne and Julia Long have always thought this, I think.

I think there's a cohort that accurately predicted some time ago that if things carried on we would be calling for GRA repeal. That's when they decided to step in. Miranda has been at it for much longer though.

Yes, I think many TRA are focused on protecting the GRA, and not wanting women to look closely at that process.

Lots of self id transpeople benefit from the GRA, even if they don't have a GRC themselves.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe we shouldn't have warned them that if they let the TRAs continue to steer the end result would be women saying "fuck this, all the males out including you". OTOH from a PR perspective some trans people challenging self-ID may be useful even if not at all feminist or really in tune with what women want.

I think it's good when transpeople question self id and the GRA. It's good that they look at the role they play as a group and as individuals and the damage that the process does to women's rights.

I just have got the time or patience to wait for more and more transpeople to see the problems and change their behaviour. There are women and girls suffering now.

Ultimately, and I know this will prompt howls of outrage on Twitter, what transsexuals want in terms of access to women's spaces doesn't really matter if women are saying no. And we are.

I’m with you AAK I knew months ago that however much I never wanted to lose my humanity towards transsexuals I knew eventually I was going to be forced to to hold the line at ‘XY it’s a guy’. Because that’s the right thing for women and girls.

I’ve been in favour of repeal for a long while. It’s a homophobic law that doesn’t benefit women or transsexuals.

I think a process happens - as per Glosswitch on Twitter:

When women start to voice their concerns about gender identity politics, I do wish they'd realise you might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb. Every woman you consider less balanced and strategic has been where you are now.

Four years ago I thought I could arrogantly breeze in with "here's where you're going wrong, radfems - be less shouty and more respectful of pronouns and let's all talk!" On the blockbot with me in five seconds flat.

The thing being that we've had several years of women peaking, being "reasonable" about it for a bit, then a further peak with a hardening of attitude. There are a great many of us these days at the latter point. So whatever the saner transsexuals say these days, there are a lot more women replying, "Sorry, it's not that I don't like you, but I'm putting women first and that's the end of it."

My belief is that the moment a male chooses to step into a women's space where they don't belong they have crossed the line and done something deviant and gravely wrong.

There's no consent for it and no ethical justification for it.

However males believe that saying 'oh but my dysphoria hurts so much' makes this deviency acceptable. Because they are sexist.

Women don't matter. We are not important. We are so lowly, we don't even flash into their minds when they cross that line. The only thought they give us in that moment is a fear that we might vocally object and hurt their feelings or thwart them getting what they want.

They are deeply sexist and they don't give a shit about us. They made that clear by crossing that line.

Failed men are not women and women are not failed men.
Men need to expand the bandwidth of what it means to be a man and they need to do that without shitting in women.

*on

a decent man would not cross that line, however he felt.

Yes. There are a lot of men who feel really irritated by other males not respecting this boundary - for example waiting outside the ladies for their daughter to use them, they would not be happy to see a 6'+ male with fists the size of cauliflowers and wearing a bad wig follow her in. Normal men know this is crossing the line.