Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

Once again - start a new thread, this thread is about Debbie's article in The Times.

I really think some people have such an elevated opinion of WPUK. They have a twitter platform of around 10k, a low-budget website, put on some fairly well-attended meetings and have been mentioned in a few press articles. I think you've built them up to something bigger than they are.

Adding my voice to the "please take this elsewhere" chorus. This thread has been amazing and illuminating and it's descended into a fight about something entirely separate.

I agree about another thread.

But it’s not gonna happen while people keep making dog-whistle comments here like “Women who don't acknowledge islamophobia and racism against Muslim women don't see the issue with Posie's tweets”

beyond I think such comments shouldn't be risen to.

The poster looks like a twat saying them.

Jacky, since Debbie spoke at the Birmingham meeting you organised - it might be a neat way to segue back into the topic of this thread.

Oh wow so WPUK issue licenses and TRAs hang off their every word waiting to see who they are allowed to attack, I see.

I outlined the mechanism how that works a couple of pages back. You may not like it, but these are the dynamics.

The magic trick is not to address me, then I am not forced to respond. Easy, once you think about it, isn't it?

Here's Debbie's speech at that meeting, which was called ironically, sorry Jacky A Woman's Place is a Sanctuary

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=hEkgtV9U2J8

First of all sorry for derailing and I will move it. I just want to respond to Carrotyo. It is NOT Possible that the labour left were opposing austerity because welfare economics and local authoirity reform and those systems were subject to consensus and still are. That the labour identified as opposing those changes relied on women for whom equality was rolled back being abused, silenced and harmed. It was NEVER possible that the left were opposing these changes because they didnt see them, Our trade unions actively prevented us discussing it, you can see quite clearly on twitter how the labour generated the risk of fascism and as welfare cuts were IN the last manifesto and our local authoritoies are collapsingand the left havent noticed. The issue is NOT that I disagree with left wing strategies for addressing austerity, my issue is that the left abused women to prevent htem discussing austerity because to discuss it was to discuss consenuss, complete unbroken political consensus on these systems. Its why women living with austerity have no trade unions, and why this movement emerged. Its not complicated. Its a delusion, left identify as opposing something and then abuse the people who threaten that delusion., In this case women. Doing what was done to Posie Parker. I agree this thread has been derailed and I apologise, this was started as an extension of discussion of riasing trans voices in WPUk. Which by the way I thought was necessary in the climate at the time but which quickly people questioned not because of anything WPUK could have done but because the situation grew. FWIW I dont see why I even have to discuss thois because what I should be discussing is security arrangements, not just for me but for all the women at risk. But clearly thats a while off. Sorry for the thread descending. I stand by everything i said and I am not responsible for left people who need to believe something that isnt true and are willing to behave like TRAs to protect their delusion.

I've started a new thread on that Lisa, as it is derailing to keep discussing it here.

Its hard to believe that your Birmingham meeting was only in March. So much has moved on since then.

WPUK was totally under fire, accused of being - I don't even know if i can use the bloody stupid word - transphobic. So Debbie's presentation had to begin with a defence of WPUK from this mud that was sticking, but was doing so at personal risk because those TRAs do love to come down like a tonne of bricks upon perceived escapees from their compound.

Things really have changed, which is great.

Here's the link to Carroty's new thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3368594-Women-on-the-left-are-responsible-for-austerity

The media tone has definitely changed, other than the Guardian which is firmly committed to upholding cocks in every woman's space as a right, and the BBC which is hoping the pushback will go away if they ignore it for long enough. Bradley, then Challenor, then White happening one after another opened a lot of eyes that had previously been firmly shut.

Bradley, then Challenor, then White happening one after another opened a lot of eyes that had previously been firmly shut.

Yes I think it has made women think boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries! I don't want our spaces to be where flashers get their cocks out for kicks, I don't want our places taken by misogynist nappy fetishists who seek a closer relationships with sadistic child rapists, I don't want to be locked in with disgusting raping piss-taking bastards, all the while being forced to pretend they are 'she'. Just NO!

So it feels weird that Debbie hasn't moved along with us. It really throws the sex difference into sharp relief.

It is incredible how much things have shifted in the last six months, isn't it?

And - to get the thread back on track - voices like Debbie's have been helpful in doing that. Whether one agrees with everything that Debbie says, it has been vital to have a TW prepared to say "not everyone who is lobbying for trans rights feels the same way as

(Flippin' 'eck. I wish I'd caught up with this thread before bothering to type a load of paragraphs on the other one!)

Yes. Things are moving at breakneck speed. But, I think, finally in the right direction. Women's voices are powerful when we use them, you know.

Thak goodness, that other stuff stopped. I have no real clue about the other parties being discussed and vague she said, she saids. It threatened to ruin an amazing thread here.

It has been valuable to have Debbie here giving background to the article, in ways Debbie did not expect I think. I would be very interested to hear answers to Barracker's tough but fair and important questions.

voices like Debbie's have been helpful in doing that

Yep

I do wonder if hitherto ‘reasonable’ transwomen may turn out, when women’s boundaries are found to be less yielding to them than they expected, to have had some variant of the nice guy thing going on.

(For the avoidance of doubt, ‘guy’ isn’t misgendering in this context.)

I have just read through the thread. There is too much to respond to individually but I would like to make four comments.

1. Yes, my campaign is based partly on self-interest. The situation is potentially disastrous for transsexuals and I am trying to mitigate the fall-out.
2. I hope that my arguments are coherent and they add to the debate but I would be crazy to imagine that is the sole reason people listen to them. It has been much easier for me to secure a platform as a transsexual than it ever was before I transitioned, and I know that women find it harder than men. But I would be equally crazy to pass opportunies when they arise.
3. While I am happy to take criticism, and - yes - I do mess up appallingly at times (I'm human), I didn't say for example that I use communal showers. I said that I thought that GRS was more important than a GRC. I worry moving from protecting actions (e.g. GRS) to trying to protect identities (that are then "validated" by a GRC) is dangerous for both women and transsexuals.
4. Solutions must be pragmatic and workable. We don't live in an ideal world and promoting solutions that don't work will not build confidence - and confidence is crucial.

I do wonder if hitherto ‘reasonable’ transwomen may turn out, when women’s boundaries are found to be less yielding to them than they expected, to have had some variant of the nice guy thing going on.

Totally agree.