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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debbie Hayton in the Times

748 replies

Igneococcus · 13/09/2018 06:22

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 18/09/2018 08:23

Some of us have been pointing that out for a while. It's been interesting watching the proportion of people who respond by going "how can you say that, you're so mean" etc drop over time. Familiarity does not breed additional trust in this case.

Sotiredallthetime · 18/09/2018 08:43

Debbie, would you be willing to use male facilities for a month and report back on how easy/difficult it was ?

I am interested in your experiences, as Hope Lye always uses the male facilities and he (note his chosen pronoun MumsnetTowers) says he has little to no trouble.

The best way transexuals can help women, is to show this new lot that all biological males including trans people, can safely share the male spaces.

Please Debbie. It would be such a good ally thing to do.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 18/09/2018 08:48

The workable solution for women and girls is always going to be sex segregation. Anything else and we just have to trust that the male person in our space has a GRC and/or SRS (whatever that means).

I don't want my daughter to be in a position where she has to trust a male person who has already demonstrated that they don't take no for an answer.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/09/2018 08:51

I think teaching her daughter that she has a right to say no to men (and her son to respect it when a woman or girl does so) is the single most important task a mother has after keeping her kids alive through the stage where they're constantly flinging themselves off/at things, shoving everything in their mouths, etc.

KatVonGulag · 18/09/2018 09:47

Debbie thank you.

This is my personal opinion. I am entitled to it, I think... Lol..whimper

I've shared hand washing spaces with transwomen, I've shared hand washing spaces with men, I've never shared a toilet with them though cos toilets are in individual cubicles.
(Although I have vomited in the home loo through morning sickness whilst DH was in the bath)

If we lived on the continent this is standard. It really is, and it seems fine actually. I am wondering if the data about increase in criminal activity in mixed spaces is confirmed by any study in Europe. E.g. does their toilet system lead to more attacks on women?

I actually think each space needs looking at differently. If it's a open communal space, and someone shows their dick then that's indecent exposure (I believe even the editor of penis news agrees with me on that). I don't care if you think it's a female organ, just put it away. I also think we need to be extremely cautious with spaces where women sleep or are ill. More vulnerable there I think.

I genuinely think good design in spaces we share and alternative uni sex spaces (alongside single sex facilities) can help compromise here.

Anyway. What a thread!

Knicknackpaddyflak · 18/09/2018 10:29

Solutions must be pragmatic and workable. We don't live in an ideal world

It's dawning on me that by 'pragmatic' and 'workable' solutions, with the warning that 'we don't live in an ideal world' you are actually saying 'you women must accept men in your spaces, you have no option on this, so let's keep it just the ones like me'.

It's deeply paternalistic, and of the view point that women have no right to female only spaces nor to refuse male born people access to them - your concern is really over which male born people should get that privilege. I'm saddened and shocked to realise this has no more respect for women, and still regards them as the inferior, subordinate race, it's just being put in nicer, kinder terms. My eyes have been really opened by this.

Thank you to the patient women who have explained on this thread, you've helped me get it. Women are entitled to female only spaces - why on earth was I buying into anything less than this? It's a shock to discover my ingrained socialisation is so strong and so subconscious I actually hadn't seen how outrageous it is for men and for transwomen to feel entitled to tell female people what they may have, what privacies they may enjoy, and that basically their rights are always within the gift and generosity of men - to give or to take.

Fuck. That.

Seriously. Fuck That.

dolorsit · 18/09/2018 10:37

If we lived on the continent this is standard. It really is, and it seems fine actually. I am wondering if the data about increase in criminal activity in mixed spaces is confirmed by any study in Europe. E.g. does their toilet system lead to more attacks on women?

From my experience of living on the continent voyeurism was something you had to put up with. I heard more reports from female peers about voyeurism in the short time I was there compared to a lifetime in the UK. It was often viewed in the same way that having your bum groped in a pub in the UK was viewed. Eg not very nice but "hey what can you do" manner. As a result it was rarely reported to the authorities.

Disclaimer: I've not read the last 300 posts but I wanted to comment before the thread moved on. The continent is obviously not homogeneous and I was in a country with slightly laxer nudity taboos than the UK but not to the extent of some nordic countries.--

Now going to catch up...

Cascade220 · 18/09/2018 10:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BiologyMatters · 18/09/2018 10:39

*Whether one agrees with everything that Debbie says, it has been vital to have a TW prepared to say "not everyone who is lobbying for trans rights feels the same way as

gendercritter · 18/09/2018 10:40

I'd agree with that - I would bet a serious amount of money that women 'on the Continent' just have to put up with an awful lots more flashing, voyeurism and assaults. Just because they don't get reported, doesn't mean they aren't happening.

gendercritter · 18/09/2018 10:45

There is something really really empowering and energising about this thread.

I am a firm believer that strict boundaries help people flourish. Children who grow up with them live with less anxiety and more self-confidence and even as a grown woman (but actually as someone who has experienced both sexual assault and domestic abuse), the relief I feel at a group of other people saying 'this is where my boundary is right here and I am not budging on that' is immense. By stating that we are saying 'no,' and that we will stand firm on that, real change can happen.

I would like to join in with saying 'no.' 'No men in certain spaces, ever, no exceptions. No prioritising men's feelings even when certain men are vulnerable. No more pushing vulnerable women around and disregarding their feelings.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 18/09/2018 10:53

It was often viewed in the same way that having your bum groped in a pub in the UK was viewed. Eg not very nice but "hey what can you do" manner.

Yes, women are being told quite firmly to lower their expectations on safety, privacy, bodily autonomy and freedom from assault. How many times have we heard 'yes but if random bloke pretending to be trans in your bathroom assaults you or rapes you you can always call the police'? And the constantly pushed idea that it's silly, prudish, unkind and old fashioned to not be totally cool with getting naked with male strangers?

In the (very good) Daily Mail article on Karen White, the women who have had to share space with a repeated rapist who was assaulting them, were no more than wallpaper. The article never once reflected on their experience or their rights as people.

This is a systematic demotion of female people to lesser status, worth and entitlement that is in danger of being fixed in law. No wonder so many female born people are frantically trying to identify into the male class to escape.

Biology that's exactly what I've finally realised. 'I am coming in, you can't stop me and how you feel about it is irrelevant'. No. The line has to be female space. No exceptions. Those who want to identify out of their sex class, nothing whatever wrong with that, go for it, but you need to campaign for your own spaces for situations of undress, privacy and dignity, not colonise and remove those of others while destroying their rights. There is nothing inclusive or worthy or even morally right about that.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/09/2018 10:54

** Debbie - it's perfectly reasonable that you should be concerned primarily with the dangers to transsexuals such as yourself. And it's good that you do have a voice, despite the disapproval from the TRA types.

Solutions must be pragmatic and workable. We don't live in an ideal world and promoting solutions that don't work will not build confidence - and confidence is crucial.

Yes. But I'm afraid current solutions (even for someone with a GRC) are not inspiring confidence among women. Yet another bad case of trans rights trumping women's rights:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6179341/Outrage-transgender-child-groomer-legally-female-womens-jail.html

ErrolTheDragon · 18/09/2018 10:54

I mucked up the bolding on the bit I quoted there, sorry.

Cascade220 · 18/09/2018 10:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/09/2018 11:01

Can I just say what a huge relief it is to have other women seeing that too now? I'm not easily swayed by female socialization into not saying what I think, but the arguments that doing so was causing a year ago were frustrating in that we really need solidarity in order to do the work that needs to be done on this issue.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/09/2018 11:02

Good on you for coming back to the thread Debbie.

1. Yes, my campaign is based partly on self-interest. The situation is potentially disastrous for transsexuals and I am trying to mitigate the fall-out.

TBH I think it is okay to be upfront and open with your self-interest. At least we then all know where we stand. On the women's side, there is the problem that women are socialised to be utterly shite at acting out of self interest, or even to recognise what our own interests are. That's why a lot of people with male socialisation find us frustrating, full of mixed messages and difficult to pin down. So the problem isn't your self-interest, but women's lack of self-interest. That's why it is so easy to trample all over us without even knowing you are doing it (or even us knowing that you are doing it - we are more likely to find ourselves at fault again). Women are waking up out of the brainwashed complacent stupor we've been in though, so I think we can put a clear set of cards on the table.

2. I hope that my arguments are coherent and they add to the debate but I would be crazy to imagine that is the sole reason people listen to them. It has been much easier for me to secure a platform as a transsexual than it ever was before I transitioned, and I know that women find it harder than men. But I would be equally crazy to pass opportunties when they arise.

I don't think you shouldn't take opportunities when they arise to give your voice a platform. You didn't create the patriarchal bias against women that advantages you. The swiss cheese thing which works against us women filters out most potential audience members - a woman's name, a woman's face, a woman's voice - at each stage the majority will tune out to look for something more 'authoritative'. If at any stage - the name, face, voice, people suspect you may be male, you retain the attention of swathes of more people.

3. While I am happy to take criticism, and - yes - I do mess up appallingly at times (I'm human), I didn't say for example that I use communal showers. I said that I thought that GRS was more important than a GRC. I worry moving from protecting actions (e.g. GRS) to trying to protect identities (that are then "validated" by a GRC) is dangerous for both women and transsexuals.

This is to be expected, members of the oppressor class will be utterly oblivious to all huge multiplicity of ways that the oppression plays out upon the oppressed. You will always be wearing massive clodhoppers when you are treading on eggshells. Its just the way it is - when you blindly blunder onto a sensitive issue, you will meet a pressurised geyser of fury you weren't expecting. That's just what it is to be from the oppressor class wandering around among the oppressed.

4. Solutions must be pragmatic and workable. We don't live in an ideal world and promoting solutions that don't work will not build confidence - and confidence is crucial.

This again I find a bit grating. I'm being very pragmatic. People can't change sex. Our sex is just the luck of the draw. People who are born of the male sex do not have the same requirements as those of the female sex. That is the pragmatic starting point. We don't live in an ideal world where we can live as though we have the requirements of the opposite sex without pissing people off and putting people in harms way. There is no line to draw or way to separate the harmful males from the non-harmful ones.

However I think we clearly need workable solutions, so mine would be that body dysphoria is a psychological issue that should be helped by psychological services. Since it is impossible to change sex and it unethical to use the opposite sex facilities without the genuine consent of every potential user (because it renders them mixed), if an individual cannot cope in their life using the facilities intended for their sex, then a campaign for a third space is the way to go, along with proper psychological support.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/09/2018 11:03

By the way - I got interrupted for ages when writing that post - apologies if it is a bit out of the blue - I'll read back.

BabyItsAWildWorld · 18/09/2018 11:12

Debbie is saying exactly what all the others are saying though. "Women let me into your spaces. I'm going to come in any way whether you like it or not". Debbie is just being a bit more polite about it. Still failing to see why people think Debbie is an ally.

That's not true. Debbie is saying access to women's spaces should be dependent on whether a man has had his pensis removed or not.
TRAs are arguing access to women's spaces should be dependent on s totally subjective identity.

Obviously women should be able to say no to either, but it's not the same argument.

BiologyMatters · 18/09/2018 11:19

That's not true. Debbie is saying access to women's spaces should be dependent on whether a man has had his pensis removed or not.
TRAs are arguing access to women's spaces should be dependent on s totally subjective identity.

To me, this is nonsense. It's all just male born people arguing about the criteria upon which they should be allowed to come in to female spaces. My criteria is simple. Females only.

ZuttZeVootEeVro · 18/09/2018 11:21

Debbie is still using their own criteria to decide who has access to women's spaces. Just like every other male transperson.

I have no idea what Debbie means by SRS, it could mean anything.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 18/09/2018 11:22

it's not the same argument.

Actually it is. It's still saying as a bottom line that women must accept the men into their spaces who wish to be 'included' - the rest is just quibbling over which men and how we define them.

It's a red herring. The answer is much more simply, No men. At all. Women's spaces are for female born people and guilting about 'inclusion' and which males are needy enough or vulnerable enough or distressed enough to permeate those boundaries just invalidates the rights of female born people to be apart from men.

PineappleSunrise · 18/09/2018 11:27

There is a strange silence around how men (and the social hierarchy in general) need to change so that GNC men do NOT have to feel threatened or rejected in male spaces. Why is that?

AngryAttackKittens · 18/09/2018 11:29

Indeed, almost as if men are not expected to change or compromise, and the desire of some of them to purge GNC men from their ranks is given far more weight than what women want and need.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 18/09/2018 11:31

Yes biology. I can't remember who said it, but paraphrasing someone upthread you have:

  1. Persistence argument. I am born male, but I have been pretending to be female for a long time therefore I am entitled to be classed as female.
  1. Surgical argument. I am born male, but I have had my penis removed therefore I am entitled to be classed as female.
  1. Legal argument. I am born male, but I have a piece of paper to prove I am entitled to be classed as female.
  1. Powerful belief argument. I am born male, but I really believe I am female therefore I am entitled to be classed as female.

It is hard to know why any of the above is more of a compelling claim to be something one is not or more compelling justification for disregarding women's boundaries and consent.

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