Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

Yes that's a great speech. And I know it's superficial but I love Sweary's voice - it's a joy to listen to.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice Absolutely!

I haven’t actually sat and watched the whole LAWS event through, think I’ll do it right now

I know! I’ve watched bits of it, but not properly all the way through.

The second one from Plymouth is here & also really worth watching!

Many people will have heard or read Stephanie Davies-Arai, Nicola Williams and Miranda Yardley who speak.

The third speaker, Abigail Rowland who is a poet, writer and former teacher speaks of her experience as a former 'trans widow'. Its very powerful and a rarely heard perpective. (from 1:18)

I have just been reflecting upon the futility of attempting to divide women along race and social class lines which is a favourite weapon of M/TRAS.

Because I am a woman I have so much in common with every woman on the planet that I don't share with any man.

I can feel huge empathy with a woman in India who has to spend a quarter of her time in a tiny hut outside because she is menstruating, shamed and shunned. I feel connection with a woman in Sudan collecting wood listening out for the gangs of men who may ambush and rape her. I feel connection to every woman who fears or has gone through pregnancy and giving birth.

Because there really is a war against women as a sex and our sex is so much more fundemental than the social structures of 'race'* and 'class' or the politics of 'left' or 'right', all these divisions look trite by comparison.

So picking on women as a sex is only going to work for so long.

Woman means something and they'll never convince me I have more in common with a bloke of the same politics, race or class as me than I do with another woman.

Women are uniting.

• I say race is a social structure because we all have a mixed heritage of DNA and with globalisation as more and more people from different 'racial' groups start families, the edges of 'racial' distinction increasingly blend.

I am learning and understanding so much from this thread. Thank you lisa and woman and all the rest

I instinctively didn't like what happened to Posie, it felt like bullying but I couldn't exactly articulate why at the time.

I think not only was the statement throwing her to the wolves, if I recall correctly Posie said they didn't talk to her first before releasing it, disinviting her from the event and publicly shaming her. That is cowardly, and unfair and not a decent or honest thing to do. Plus it made something that could possibly have been resolved by a frank exchange of views into a stick to beat GC women with.

Yes, what Posie said might not have been great, but it was unguarded, a mistake. Most humans make them from time to time.

What happened though was that, like many women, making one mistake was given as sufficient and legitimate reason to throw her to the wolves and threaten her kids. How fucked up is that? Woman puts foot slightly wrong - she must die in a fire / get sent to jail / be publicly shamed / her kids are threatened. It's insane. Most of the responses to what she said was FAR WORSE THAN WHAT SHE SAID.... (sorry for the shouting).

Yet men (e.g Boris Johnson) make mistake after mistake after mistake and just carry on.

WPUK have done a lot of good, but just as Posie is human and capable of mistakes and open to challenge, it's my opinion they made a mistake with Posie and should be challenged over it. They behaved badly. I'm not going to stop supporting them because of one mistake, but I will say I think it was wrong and I think it was bullying.

The TRAs are terrifying and I'm not openly GC because I'm scared of them threatening my kids and I'm obviously at base a coward (certainly more cowardly than Lisa and Posie). But I will support Lisa and Posie and Linda and all out there GC women and I will sticker and write on here and make it clear that there is huge support behind them.

Posie Parker's most recent video:

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3362782-posie-parker-brilliant-rant

I properly dont need to be liked, I dont WANT to be a public figure and I dont want to compete with women because here thats a mistake. Women can do something amazing right now, are doinmg, but solidarity and uniformity of thought are not the same. We are doing something amazing because lots of women are standing up, we know what we are bound by but we are all different. Very. Thats alright. I think this is probably best it raised its head early so women COULD say we are not doing that, and I think the elite women who did that need to reflect on the fact that Posie is not a public figure and didnt ask to be, whereas those using womens trade union power, and gaining media power during austerity ARE public figures whose actual behaviour during this period harmed MANY women who are using political machinery to assert power, that is directly linked to women being directly disenfranchised. I wont throw stones but I wont stand with people who see putting me and my daughter at risk of violence because I'd be hauled over the coals for doing so and maybe we are being given an opportunity to teach the left what solidarity is.

solidarity and uniformity of thought are not the same. We are doing something amazing because lots of women are standing up, we know what we are bound by but we are all different. Very

This is so important!

I cannot understand why it has become unreasonable for women to expect women only spaces. I just cannot.

I cannot because all my life as a girl and woman I have been taught not to for my own safety. “Stay together girls” my mother used to say “you’ll be alright then.” She was right. Wether we like it or not we are vulnerable. We don’t get to choose, we only get to defend what we already have.

Lisa If you don't mind me saying, I would prefer if you let this go now.
You keep repeating the implication that WPUK doxxed PP and her children.
They did not. TRAs did and you are blaming women for what men did.
And PP is very definitely asking to be a public figure and she is very good at it, as has been noted here and is not disputed.
Everyone is familiar with what happened. It was really rather distressing and put the emergency stop on, in the summer and upset a lot of people.
But it's not fair now for you to keep repeating that WP have done anything DIRECTLY to endanger PP's children.
Because we could all endlessly blame women and that is what TRAs want. They will be gleeful at this.
Well, this is just my opinion of course.
This is the thread about Debbie's piece, which has now been derailed. I'll take the fall for that, I asked the question upthread but can we please let this go and get on with what we are all getting better at?

I have only just been able to catch up on this thread, awesome posts by barracker and AAKittens and others, and Posie's amazing video, and wow , I just wanted to say THANK YOU.

This thread should be compulsory reading everywhere, even for those who disagree.

NO PENISES AND NO MALES IN WOMEN'S SPACES! NO FUCKS GIVEN!

Nancytoo am sure you would and no I did not imply anything untrue I correctly stated it had occurred because its dangerous and we all have kids and are at risk. You may prefer I ignore it but I would prefer not to be put deliberately at risk and would prrfer that didnt happen again and that wont be achieved unless a boundary is set. If you would like to point out what I said that wasnt true ill retract.

Nancytoo. Maybe reflect on why you would rather I didnt discuss it? The reason is that its not ok and its easier for you to imply am lying about an action we all saw, were supposed to see, and which not only did harm but threatened to undermine womens ability and willingness to speak.

I think that statement makes WPUK look like pompous twats. It was a weak thing to do.

Whether or not you think the statement is pompous is irrelevant, I posted it because women are continuously pontificating on why wpuk disinvited Posie - to bully her, because she is outspoken (as though other speakers aren't?!), as part of some kind of hidden agenda etc etc - all this pontificating is bizarre when the reasons are laid out very clearly in writing, in a public statement. Imagine if there was no statement... Imagine the theories that would abound!

I've spoken to many women about this and again and again, it's clear that women who were aware of her tweets and comments which were building in the weeks leading up to Truro and who are anti-racist support WPUK's decision. Women who don't see racism and who don't see Islamophobia, are somehow incapable of taking that statement as read and assume hidden agendas.

For a person trying to temper down the speculation, you sure are being very provocative towards other women.

I am not pontificating on Posie and why she was disinvited. I am stating that the act of doing so publicly and combining it with a statement 'casting her out' was a direct replication of left wing techniques to harm women to prevent them participating in politics that it directly caused harm and that it was done by elite women who did not consider the consequences and how dangerous it is to do that to a mother with children/. Thats not the same as approving of racism and posie is quite capable of being tackled on what she said but removing her frm a platform and then putting her directly at risk when she is known to be targeted by crazy activists was not ok and it is not to happen again. I have supported WPUK and what they have done and continue to do so, and the women in leeds are amazing but I am being clear that elite left wing women who SOLD austerity, deliberately putting children at risk to exercise control is NOT to happen and again and no mother is to be deliberately placed at risk of violence now matter ow virtuous it makes you feel and how anti-racist it makes you feel to do so. If elite women do not have the ability to stand with women without putting their children at risk they can sit down. And if the aim of the process was to be inclusive, and the platform is a way to do that then WPUK might want to address the key figures who demanded that austerity's impact on mothers was not addressed directly and the women whose comfortable lives are paid for by union money that should be saying what we are saying but isnt. Purity politics is a dangerous business cos none of us is pure but intersectionality is about reflection on the imperfection of your own perspectie and the way your own identity impacts others. And the boundary has been set because we are actual mothers not public figures and i have zero intention of spending another eight years bein terrorised because elite women do not wish me to discuss political consensus and austerity in a way that injuress their identity. There is not a direct route from 'anti-racism to lets put women at risk'. I appreciate that some women involved may be so privileged they do not understand the risk they created, now that has been corrected. Next time it happens it will be called directly what it is which is deliberately putting women and kids at risk of violence to assert an authority ythat doesnt exist.

I get what you are saying, lisa ( I believe). When influential mainstream people like Owen Jones and many woke Lefties basically went along with the 'TERFs'=racists=NAZIs argument of TRAs, the mainstream basically gave licence to TRAs to use violence.
'Cause everything is justified to prevent the rise of the NAZIs, right? (It reminds me a bit of how some statesman being declared 'the new Hitler' is a good telltale sign of whose country 'the West' is going to bomb next, no matter what international law has to say about it.)
Hard to believe TRAs had gone on the attack like that, had they not felt this type of unquestioning mainstream validation of their perspective.
And so, if even the 'evil TERFs' of WPUK distance themselves from someone - man, that's a target. These dynamics may not have been fully considered by WPUK, but it creates danger for the 'outcast', nonetheless.

What I don't quite get is what you concretely mean when you say key figures on the left prevented discussion of austerity consensus - even while they acted as if they fought against austerity. (You say it also repeatedly on your youtube channels). I saw that with the Blairite wing but I had thought the Corbyn wing was different. Not that I don't trust your analysis, I'd just need some concrete examples how that worked (no naming of names needed) to get an understanding of how that works and plays out mechanistically, I guess.
So if you should ever fancy making some 'how to prevent discussion of austerity while pretending to fight it for Dummies'-clip, I'd eagerly watch it.

Anyway, thanks for your analyses, they are highly appreciated.

I cannot understand why it has become unreasonable for women to expect women only spaces. I just cannot.

It is male domination isn't it? But male domination by imitation and infiltration.

I do hope Debbie returns to clarify why males feel entitled to enter women's spaces and feel entitled to lecture women on the reasons why our refusal and boundaries seem unworkable.

There's incredulity on both sides.

Lisa your comments make no sense.

1. Women are not to blame for male violence
2. Posie is responsible for her own actions. She tweeted racist and lesbophobic statements and wpuk are not responsible if TRAs call her out on that
3. Your belief that women on the left support austerity is absurd. Women are specifically drawn to the left because they are socially conscious and oppose the left. You think that party politics and supporting Labour won't end poverty and fix everything and to a large extent I agree with you. However, there is a lot of sense in women organising on the left in an attempt to do that, and to frame them as being pro-austerity because you disagree with their tactics is actual madness. Their intent is obviously not to support austerity.

TYPO! *oppose austerity

Do you have any evidence of anything you are saying? Anything specific you can point to?