Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

Yes. It is about solidarity.
We don't have to agree on every little detail we need to rally round and support our powerful outspoken women.

I agree that the treatment of posie was a warning to the rest of us

Agreed about the warning - hence picking on Venice Allen and Linda Bellos.

Trying to make examples of outspoken fearless women.

I think it's backfiring though.

Women are becoming enraged and want to connect with other women who share that rage.

lisa

I want to just say thank you again for your analyses. You have educated me.

SC Rage Day got me suspended also. No email. Eventually back in after mailing a few times. Yes, to putting the frighteners on and also yes to random moderating. We were decent on that thread. I think there was annoyance that we instantly saw through it.

yy charlie

Thanks for all these answers. I'm familiar with the 'PP Story' to date, so thank you for clarifying that the doxxing of her children was carried out by TRAs and not (directly if you see it this way) by a women's group.
There's so much difficulty with factions and cliques forming and actually it appears that women don't all pull together and I do find that sad. There is so much to unite us. It's always been the same, I'm afraid I'm pretty long in the tooth.
MN were shameful in the policing of women's language a while back. I'm guessing the 'SC day of rage' was a protest against that? If there's a thread I'd like to read it.
I don't come here much but I came to get that answer and needed more than 280 characters. So thank you all for that.

I suppose the upcoming court case has been orchestrated by the same men, and there's surely not one woman amongst us who won't be supporting LB & VSA in that?

I agree about enraging “ordinary” women. I am just a regular Josephine who has realised more and more how serious all these issues are and how determined certain factions are to just shut women up. As soon as a woman really says loudly and clearly what so many of us think and feel then the full force of abuse comes down, closely followed by the police and the law. It is so laughable that the police can turn up to question Posie about Twitter comments and get het up about penis stickers when violence against women and girls is rampant and never gets called a “hate crime”.

I have been bumbling along raising three kids and I am reaching a point when I am determined to get much more active politically. Women do so much and cope with so much, once we get together and support each other we are a force to be reckoned with. It’s getting to a point of not only peakTrans but peakBullshit.

I so agree with Lisa that women, even in the middle of this onslaught tone down our voices and we just shouldn’t do it anymore. They need to hear us loud and clear.

I wonder if TRAs will ever realize how many radfems their overreach has created.

Thank you for your posts, Lisa. You’ve clarified a lot of points for me.

Thank you for your posts, Lisa. You’ve clarified a lot of points for me.

Same here.

Just, well, what they all said ^

I'll have to admit tI still being a little cinfused about WPUK agenda,whilst a radical feminist position isn't naturally socialist in my view Labour have utterly abandoned women and not for the first time in ther history so if WPUK regard themselves as Labour whilst I'll still support them as they are providing an essential voice I wouldn't hope they see the irony that that voice is not allowed by Labour

All of Woman's Place UK's campaign demands and films etc are available on the website, you can also follow them on twitter. So I guess if anyone wants to know what WPUK stand for, it's all there. Maybe people should refer directly to article / posts / tweets etc when discussing things related to WPUK so people can see such claims evidenced? For example, in relation to PP, there was a statement put out explaining the reasons why. It read:

"Posie Parker will no longer be speaking at our Cornwall meeting as we object to her stated views on race and religion. We do not agree that this reflects a feminist position. Our aims are to discuss issues of concern around sex and gender and the GRA. We want to focus on this in a respectful and considered way.

We are very conscious of how sex, class and race intersect to oppress women and we want to be clear that we are fighting for women, whatever personal choices they make, to have their rights upheld under law.

We are also aware that many women of colour feel unable to enter this debate for fear of being caricatured as illiberal by a society which already alienates and discriminates against them.

We reject any generalisations or misrepresentations of Muslims & other faith groups and we think this contributes to the alienation of these communities from the public discourse.

We are a single focus campaign working within a short time-frame. We hold different perspectives on a number of issues but we are united in our determination to support women to have a voice on the GRA and are working to increase the inclusivity of our meetings.

We intend to stay focussed on our five demands and bring as many women from diverse communities into the campaign as possible."

I understand that women feel upset that Muslim women and women of colour were prioritized above a middle class white woman who supports Tony Robinson.

I haven't seen anything to do with WPUK supporting Austerity or shutting down talk of austerity, that's an interesting extrapolation though!

The campaign demands as listed on the website are:
• Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard.
• The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.
• A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow or single sex services or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job (such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice.
• Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces.
• Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

I look forward to more diverse campaigns emerging on this issue. If WPUK isn't working for some women, hopefully those women can work together to form other campaigns which better represent their voices.

"I understand that women feel upset that Muslim women and women of colour were prioritized above a middle class white woman who supports Tony Robinson"

Do you think comments like that are helpful and add to the debate?

People like Posie - and you, Lisa - are always going to be double-edged swords. You're both powerful and charismatic women and truthsayers who inspire others. You're also both resolute non self-censors who speak and respond with immediacy and won't not say the thing other people don't like so neither of you will ever be good for anyone's branding. (You should probably take that last bit as a compliment!)

I don't think WPUK should have publicly shunned Posie for all the reasons Lisa and Woman have outlined. This is a dangerous environment for outspoken women and we all need to have each other's backs - internal disagreements should be sorted out by internal debates, not shunning. Now there are several groups working, perhaps it is time for WPUK to openly brand as the socialist feminist chapter of the GC movement rather than trying - and, in Posie's case failing - to pretend to be a group for all women of all political persuasions.

That said, I don't believe there was any deliberate attempt to throw Posie to the wolves. I think it was, as Clarice said, a panicked capitulation to potential smearing.

Women have to fill that vacuum created by backlash or something more toxic will.

That's not WPUK. That's Labour triangulation hiding consensus about (working class) women being the primary targets of austerity from 2010 under Ed Miliband using evil Tory messaging. Even those on the left of the pary - hello Sanctimonious Morph - did that. Any woman (eg Lisa) who said but Labour would fuck us over too got similar treatment on social media. That's what Lisa is saying there.

Also, just to say - all power to WPUK, who have done so much and who have carved out a space for so many women to learn and speak up themselves, and who have really not put many feet wrong in the face of endless defamation and attack.

I will still be supporting them and donating.

Carrotty I think that statement makes WPUK look like pompous twats. It was a weak thing to do.

But the call for solidarity extends to WP who are playing a brilliant role. Getting women all over the UK to meet in person. They've been under a lot of pressure.

The stated aims are fantastic.

Doing the wokey cokey (I nicked that from somewhere I can't remember) isn't a good look and neither is shunning a woman. It is far too similar to all the no-platform 'call out', 'safe space to be a misogynist' authoritarian tribal fuckwits.

There's so much difficulty with factions and cliques forming

I'm not convinced this is the truth though certainly some TRAs (especially those on social media) are pushing this narrative and sometimes deliberately agitating to cause friction.

There are a number of grassroots groups doing slightly different things in slighty different ways but with shared fundemental aims:

Fairplay for Women fairplayforwomen.com/
WPUK womansplaceuk.org/
ManFriday manfridayuk.org/
Let a Woman Speak www.letawomanspeak.org/
Standing For Women www.standingforwomen.com/
We Need to Talk drradfem.org/
Liverpool Resisters liverpoolresisters.wordpress.com/
Critical Sisters www.criticalsisters.co.uk/
Transgender Trend www.transgendertrend.com/
Correcting a Blindspot www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3366410-Correcting-a-Blindspot-Meeting-17th-October-2018
(apologies for those I have missed)

Also, Im sure, many less publicised or informal groups.

I understand that women feel upset that Muslim women and women of colour were prioritized above a middle class white woman who supports Tony Robinson.

Good God that's a provocative statement.

I'm not convinced this is the truth

Same here. Women are working together with broadly similar aims and it is working. I think that WP statement is the only boo boo I've seen.

'Let A Woman Speak' Truro event is really worth watching.
If short of time, I think SwearyG's speech at 1:06 is important.

"the only way to defeat a bully is to show strength and unity"

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=5w3EjbjubU8