Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

The 'old-school transsexual' community was warned a long time ago that this backlash would happen if the majority of them opted to hide behind women's skirts and didn't fight back against the TRAs against the proposals.

And here it is. Sadly the truth hurts.

bar the ocassional fleeting misgendering by someone who has only clocked the height and the shoulders, without actually looking at me, I never get mistaken for a man

Yep

Im quite obviously a female but im broad and a little taller than average with short hair

So when they look at my face they correct themselves

When i posted i hadnt realised where the original point about tall women had been made

Women over 5'10 with big hands are going to be under routine suspicion with no way of proving they are not transwomen with a GRC

Dont be silly...seriously

I'm sure there are some excellent arguments out there you could use...i have nodded along to some

This is not one of them

Im quite obviously a female but im broad and a little taller than average with short hair

So when they look at my face they correct themselves

and you presumably don't take offence at being, albeit momentarily, misgendered. Because you understand that inbuilt female anxiety.

Kittens thsee are two great quotes:

I can never figure out if it's wishful thinking, ie they want it to be true that women can't tell, or if there's something about having gender dysphoria that renders person unable to accurately perceive what they and others look like, or if (worst option) most women honestly think "woman" just looks like a pair of boobs and nothing dangling from the groin, woman is an incomplete or deformed man Aristotle style.

I'm starting to think trans males are even more oblivious to all of this than the average man is, because acknowledging it would force them to confront things they don't want to think about.

And in line with this I feel really uncomfortable with I Willoughby's delusional insistence that the surgery is an actual, complete and total sex change, uncomfortable that Berdorf always wanted to be female to be like a model - so shallow - and Lees wanted to be a woman after seeing Mia Farrow in Rosemary's Baby not creepy at all .

There is a lack of recognition of what women actually are. I'm reminded of that twitter thread where someone tried to give straight men the shit normally dished to lesbians - saying some TWs are much hotter and better looking than women. The het blokes soon jumped in and said no fucking way. Straight men appreciate all the things that make women female as lesbians do.

exactly, timelady. That and also because I have the selfawareness to realise that people I encounter randomly in the street or in a shop really haven't given me a second's thought and that is absolutely fine.

As a wise woman once said to me, "don't worry too much about what other people think of you. It's really none of your business".

If you hang your whole sense of worth off worrying if other people are seeing you not for who you wish to be seen as, but who you actually are, then trying to guilt them out of believing the evidence of their own eyes, you are doing nothing but creating a world of pain for yourself.

On the issue of women over 5ft10 with big hands being suspect, that describes some of the world's most famous models. Pretty sure they're not regularly "misgendered" in toilets.

This is a glorious thread sisters .. just read it in its entirety. This, by two lawyers, is a most interesting contribution:

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/09/14/never-mind-reforming-gender-recognition-act-theres-no-need-gender-recognition-certificates/

I can't be the only five-ten-plusser staring at my hands right now thinking "are they big? I'm not sure any more"

I suppose they are big compared to many women's. But they're not man hands. My husband and I are exactly the same height, but his hands are a quarter again as big as mine.

I have no idea why I am even giving this headspace...

and as we know a large number of woman are trans inclusive so what happens when the other woman disagree with you when you speak out

Do you know ive never spoken up about a transwoman in the loo...

but do people ever read their posts back and think...oh fuck that sounds dreadful

Ive just told a women that she cant assert her boundaries...she needs to think about what what other people are going to say to her

time

Absolutely

Though to be honest men tend to do it as well...especially if im taller than them

good spot, rufus.

Don't worry Sophocles.

It isn't just the size of hands that make them feminine or masculine. It is in combination with big veiny forearms, thickness, knuckle size, etc.

And that's another thing to resent about the projection of coping mechanisms employed by transwomen onto women. Suggesting that a tall woman looks like a man makes them feel better, and who cares about how it makes the women feel?

I think there needs to be a huge effort to give young gender non-conforming lesbians and other women more visible role models.

Peach Yoghurt
'These 'tomboys' became strong women'

'Why am I not transgender'

'7 Signs you are transgender'

On the subject of hand size. I can tell quickly if a bloke's hands are big/ strong enough to be able to pin both my wrists together in one of them, rendering me helpless and giving them one hand free.

I have never seen a woman's hands of that size and strength.

I'm not at all worried, clarice, it's completely absurd!

Here's the reality of what being a tall, strong woman (query big hands?) gets you. I was out leafletting for FPFW last weekend, and an older man walked towards me, and was looking at the leaflet. I gave it to him, and started to explain what we were doing. He took the opportunity to tell me repeatedly what a fine, big lass I was, raking me up and down with his eyes and "flirting" with me, completely ignoring what I was saying. Because of what I was doing, and having to be seen to be spotless, I had to try to shut it down politely, and not just tell him to go fuck himself.

Then last week, when I was walking back from the gym, some fourteen year old wee scrote on a bike yelled at me - "hey! hey you with the legs in the shorts! Wanna suck it?"

Being a tall woman attracts attention from idiotic males. So when Debbie tells me that it might make people think I'm a man, I just go - naaaah. That's not my reality. Don't be silly. Everyone clocks me as female and behaves accordingly.

Im a bit concerned about dh now

He is 5ft 6 and has quite small hands

Or the idea that people won't know you're a woman if you don't wear skirts or dresses. People know that I'm a woman in an anorak.

I know a bloke Rufus who is self conscious about being slightly built, having hardly any body hair and hands that aren't particularly masculine, and it's ridiculous unnecessary stress. Nobody else notices.

And noone would ever misgender him. He is an obvious bloke.

Yy where

Years ago I remember watching some American psycho analysis type programme were the host and the majority of the audience were trying to convince some poor sod that he was gay

Very slight, high voice, painted nails and a very confused girlfriend who knew that he was all man

Nowadays they would have been trying to persuade him that he was trans and that she was a lesbian

He just loved nail varnish and wasnt very macho!

Where!!

Everyone was so busy going brave and stunning, that it became very difficult to say actually I usually intuit sex. We DO intuit sex or the species would die out. 9/10 and even when males pass infrequently, its unlikely to be constant.

I'm gobsmacked that Debbie would share communal showers with females and think no one would realise. I'm also disappointed& sad & angry because I thought Debbie had more respect for women's boundaries