Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

I know plenty of butch lesbians and have never mistaken them for blokes.

Equally I’ve never seen a transwoman who remotely passed as a woman.

It’s just another of their delusions.

The deletions have started. I hope that the thread stays intact.

Can anyone archive it please?

Thanks SpartacusAutisticus

I agree Spartacus

This paragraph:
"Abuse of transgender rights destroys public confidence in them. Without ways to ensure that women are protected in spaces such as swimming pool changing rooms, some will be tempted to put up their own barricades. That may ward off abusers but it also excludes trans women who the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) is designed to benefit."

There is a lot in it that makes me feel queasy. "Abuse of transgender rights" reminds me of Jane Fae's insensitive comment about 'domestic violence gone wrong'. Is there a right way to do domestic violence? When males feel entitled to enter female as part of 'transgender rights' is there any part of that which isn't abusive?

"some will be tempted to put up their own barricades." surely we did that already but males just use their social power and privilege to ignore them.

"That may ward off abusers but it also excludes trans women"

No shit Sherlock.

I just want to copy and paste this. From Barrack.

My daughter is eleven.
She weighs 4 stones.
Do you expect her to ask you to leave? Or any man to leave?

Do you?

You KNOW you should not be in there. You know how this makes us feel. I'm stepping away from this thread now, because the thought of my tiny daughter being stuck in a swimming pool changing room with any man who thinks the burden to get him to leave lies with her, is making me so distressed that I will say something that MNHQ will need to censor. And I want this thread to stand.

Even 'reasonable' transwomen seem to be of the opinion that women's boundaries can be upheld against male bodied individuals, by a four stone child.

Except they don't.

Even on an anonymous online forum, against grown, informed, articulate women, they push back and argue.

I'm gobsmacked that Debbie would share communal showers with females and think no one would realise. I'm also disappointed& sad & angry because I thought Debbie had more respect for women's boundaries

I agree with this. I like Debbie and think she’s brought a lot to this debate, but she is a late transitioner and despite her best efforts her male entitlement and socialisation shows through.

Sorry Debbie.

5’10”, with big (proportionate) hands here. Never been mistaken for a man, even in androgynous clothing.

I notice other tall women and, funnily enough, none of them look, move or speak like men except those ‘women’ who, despite having fleetingly passed, turn out to be men.

I think Debbie would be comforted to think this wasn’t so.

2015 Jane Fae's article in New Statesman on Tara Hudson includes view on GRA:
(extract)
"Why Hudson would not have a GRC is unclear: we do not know precisely what surgeries she has had, nor why she has not got a GRC. I don’t have one. I will not, because I absolutely refuse the right of the state to demand money from me for the simple purpose of acknowledging who I am. In that sense, the GRC is NOT like a passport or driving license. Because it says that my gender is dependent on the ratiocination of some state apparatchik, who obviously knows who I am better than I do.

A growing number of trans men and women agree with me, objecting to this imposition for a variety of reasons. It’s a gender tax. State intrusion. The fact that flawed equal marriage legislation effectively creates a “spousal veto” over obtaining a GRC (because your spouse’s agreement is needed to convert a heterosexual marriage to a same-sex marriage, or vice versa). One trans woman I know simply will not obtain a GRC until this veto is removed. Her spouse doesn’t object. She does. In principle."

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/10/why-has-trans-woman-tara-hudson-been-sent-all-male-prison

People humour trans people really. I sometimes think women are so misogyny-steeped they take it as a compliment that a male would condescend to move among us. Then it's all a bit 'don't mention the war' about their sex. It gives transpeople a false impression of how well they are pulling it off.

Also, those who object to the pretense are unlikely to be among a trans person's close associates, therefore they never hear objections because the people who'd object have already been filtered out of their life. Imagine if someone years ago had told Debbie what we have in this thread - how likely would they be to still be in touch?

Aw God Rowan that self-centred entitlement grates so much it's given me a rash.

Things I worry about as a tall woman:

Finding one piece swimsuits, jeans, trousers and coats that fit
Banging my head on things when I'm wearing massive heels
Small men taking exception to me and giving me shit
Fitting in seats on public transport without kneecapping myself

Things I do not worry about as a tall woman

Using the appropriate bathroom for my sex
Being mistaken for a man.

HTH!

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice

Its also rather disengenous when JF has so much airtime (especially on BBC) explaining how important it is to have a GRC (though without medical gatekeeping etc). It reads as though JF won't take one anyway.

Why don't journalists ask questions about JF's previous positions?

JF says of non-binary in the same article:
(extract)
'The situation is troubling enough for us binaries (those of us who consider ourselves to have a gender); the Gender Recognition Act, passed in 2004, offers nothing at all to the fast-growing numbers of non-binary trans people. They have to pick a box"

Is self-id GRA a step towards competely abolishing any sex/gender determinants?

r0wantrees, I think Rose if Dawn was saying much the same thing on Twitter today, saying the vehicle of queer theory was being used.

Will go and read Procrastinator thank you.

The original GRA and these suggested reforms are all clearly stepping stones aren't they?

These people are wrong in the head. What bizarre future are they cooking up for us all? Why are they going into schools and meeting Girl Guides and all the other things setting my hairs on end?

Rose of Dawn:

twitter.com/Rose_Of_Dawn/status/1041276695360282624

2014 Telegraph article 'Facebook's 71 gender options come to UK users
Following its successful integration in the US, US Facebook users can choose from one of 50 gender options'
(extract)
"Facebook worked with UK groups Press for Change and Gendered Intelligence to add 21 new options to ensure the list best reflected the ways UK users may choose to describe themselves.

"Gender identities are complex and for many people, describing themselves as just a man or just a woman has always been inadequate," said Professor Stephen Whittle, vice-president at Press for Change. The European Court of Human Rights has upheld the right to develop our gender identity, as key to our personal autonomy.

"By challenging the gender binary, Facebook will finally allow thousands of people to describe themselves as they are now and it will allow future generation of kids to become truly comfortable in their own skins." (continues)

www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/10930654/Facebooks-71-gender-options-come-to-UK-users.html

This thread is the most compelling, reasoned and concise I’ve ever read on here.
And I’ve been lurking for years.
Thank you to all who have contributed.

This thread is the most compelling, reasoned and concise I’ve ever read on here.

Agreed, I've actually had a 'scales dropped from my eyes' moment reading this thread.

This thread is the most compelling, reasoned and concise I’ve ever read on here.

Agreed. And it’s come to something when these are the sort of threads you have to quickly save to PDF before the mods get busy.

Why are they going into schools and meeting Girl Guides and all the other things setting my hairs on end?

current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3366278-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-CEO

Just want to say this thread is great. Completely agree with Lisa - I say no to males in female only spaces, for myself and my daughters. If you are male and you care about women (even only some women ) then you won't be in female sex only spaces in the first place.