Debbie Hayton in the Times

[Igneococcus]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

I think a good firm no said early can reveal who you are dealing with. If women having boundaries is taking an extreme position we are all screwed cos thats supposed to be a basic. I will not teach my daughter her boundaries are externally decided and I no longer use the term trans woman unless its an accident(which it still often is) and I will not teach her that sex can change. Gender dysphoria is real, but it doesnt mean a man becomes a woman or a woman becomes obligated to a man. Thats the line. Womens rights were just cast aside cos of the feeling in a mans head. That cant happen again. Thats why women have to set red lines and why the outcome of this is that self id is over.

Debbie, if you were actually asked to leave the female toilets / changing room, where would you go? The mens? Or would you use your partner and daughter as human shields?

I'm very butch. I've been asked to leave the women's toilets before. I've been challenged plenty. I've also seen the looks of discomfort on women's faces as they don't challenge me. I have joked about it to friends who never realised it happens all the time. Many women look at me with fear, when I go to a public toilet.
Sometimes I use disabled toilets, if the area looks quiet. (I got told off for this on here, I have no intention of making a disabled person's life harder, but sometimes it's just easier). I feel uncomfortable because of how uncomfortable other women are. If I'm out in a pub, for example, I leave my jacket behind with whoever I'm with, so that my breasts are more obvious, whatever I'm wearing. I don't make eye contact and I'm in and out as quickly as I can be. I've always used public toilets like this and I'm entitled to be in there! Maybe it's my female socialisation that means I'm acutely aware of how unwelcome I am in there as a natal woman who looks fairly masculine. That said, I don't look like a man (I'm the wrong shape!) and only 'pass' (if I was aiming for that, which I'm not) if the person doesn't look closely or is from somewhere where butch lesbians just don't exist. So although I'm identifiable as a woman, a: some women still think I'm a man, b: some women look at me with fear, c: some women challenge me. So I can't see how a trans woman is likely to have used women's toilets "for years" without incident. Most women aren't confident enough to challenge but some are - and there are only a very small number of MtFs who pass. So what is actually happening is what previous posters have alluded to, and women are uncomfortable, scared, etc and unable or unwilling to say anything. What is telling/ironic/infuriating/all of the above is that the trans women who make the argument are unable to see that discomfort and fear, possibly due to a lack of female socialisation.

Delurking after a very long time reading these boards.
Thank you Barracker , Datun and many others - you have clarified my thoughts and articulated my feelings.
Women are allowed boundaries. And it is not our job to look after everyone else’s feelings, even if that means fighting against our female socialisation.

Sex segregation should be sex segregation.
We should all (continue to) fight against gender stereotyping.

Well observed Turph

It's fight or flight kicking in, and that's a no brainer for most women in this situation.

But I'd want to report any concerns to management or security and not to be summarily dismissed as a bigot.

It's a blanket 'no to males in female spaces' from me too. Even if Turph and her mates get challenged - because at least they understand why, and that's the difference..

I am 5’11” with big hands, as are my two oldest daughters and several other females in my extended family.

I can confidently report that being misgendered in the Ladies is not a thing for tall women.

I suspect the furtive/brazen "I know I shouldn't really be in here" body language is what actually gives the game away.

Thanks Turph and in my experience when encountering very butch women in the toilets my mental experience is this (in the rare cases it is not obvious to me they are a woman in comfortable clothes and practical hair):

Split second thought: Is that a bloke in the toilets?
Split second assessment: No that's a woman in practical clothes, maybe a lesbian.
Next thought: I am such an arse, I hope I didn't do an obvious double take that made her feel uncomfortable.
Next thought: Shit, why am I giving it so much thought? I bet she gets this all the time.

So I think it is obvious very quickly if someone is a butch woman and I don't feel threatened at all. And often butch women must do a lot of deliberate things such as taking off the jacket and - thinking about it now- many use their voices and body language, for example, considerately budging up at the sink in a way males just don't do- so any doubt about their sex is short lived.

Women are obvious in their faces, voices, bodies, eye contact, use of personal space, body language, vibe.

You can tell pretty quickly who is female.

I suspect the furtive/brazen "I know I shouldn't really be in here" body language is what actually gives the game away.

Agreed - along with over-compensating behaviours that draw attention.

I wish they'd never crossed that line. Why didn't they feel too weird about crossing that line? Why don't males just leaves us alone instead of following us everywhere where we might retreat from them.

I felt such discomfort when I read Debbie's column - thank you all for clarifying why. This is one of the clearest and most incisive threads I've ever read, and I lurk a lot!

Just goes to show there's always the ability to peak trans some more

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice
To be fair, I'm not sure I was always considerate. When I was young and learning about myself I didn't always consider other women's reactions. For example, I might have shaved my head instead of just having short hair. I look pretty scary with a shaved head, but I didn't consider that it would make other women uncomfortable. I didn't care, I was young and butch and I wanted a shaved head...so I guess when performing as a trans woman, that trans woman might not give a monkey's about how women feel; it might not just be male socialisation, it might be deliberate thoughtlessness.

considerately budging up at the sink
Deliberately staring at the ceiling whilst standing in a toilet queue! I forgot that one. Sometimes I get quite surprised if I see someone I know, for example, and they talk to me and I snap out of my deliberately-ignoring-everyone bubble. I'm not sure all butch lesbians do this but I know I go out of my way to avoid scaring anyone, interacting with anyone, or even using the women's toilets full stop. (If there's an alternative I use it).
The realities of not confirming to gender stereotypes aren't very glamourous. But they're ok to manage, and these days not much of a big deal. I wish I could get the message through to the young girls calling themselves trans.

Turph I was thinking about the skinhead look just now after posting and I realised that the only times i've worried that a butch woman might be aggressive is if she goes for that skinhead look and dress - it was really wired into me as a kid that skinheads were scary. Rolled up jeans, tattoos, piercings, etc.

The Sinead O'Connor/Hare Krisna/hippy baggy clothes skinhead look isn't intimidating.

However, even if you are looking at the ceiling, the other women know you are a woman. It only takes a split second to work it out- for me anyway.

I wish I could get the message through to the young girls calling themselves trans.

Same here.

I think there needs to be a huge effort to give young gender non-conforming lesbians and other women more visible role models. The young lesbians I know seem to be pretty oblivious to politics and also be pretty gender conforming.

This is a cracking thread. A couple of points I want to pick up...

I am the 6-foot woman with (quite?) big hands but, bar the ocassional fleeting misgendering by someone who has only clocked the height and the shoulders, without actually looking at me, I never get mistaken for a man. As agonybeetle says - that's not a thing. As turph and clarice say, butch presenting women and lesbians is another matter, but again, not one remotely anything to do with males in female spaces. It's females in female spaces being mistaken for something they're not. It's not males in female spaces being clocked for something they absolutely are. Apples and pears. Not a gotcha. Not remotely.

And bespin, you have had this explained to you before, so I know you know this already, but women not saying "no", is a million miles away from women saying "yes". You don't even know how many times women have seen you in single sex spaces and simply melted away, never to be seen again.

I'm feisty, strong and opinionated. i still find it extraordinarily difficult to face down boundary-pushing males. I wouldn't say anything if I saw you in a female changing room, but my heart would be pounding and I would be on full alert. This isn't a minority reaction. Many, if not most, women are unsettled and threatened by male incursions into our space.

Brava, brava for this thread.

Other situations need different approaches. In female spaces where nudity or semi nudity is expected, GRS is more important than a GRC. Unlikely that you would notice a trans woman in the showers following GRS. Not sure how you are going to police any attempt to keep them out.

Debbie, surely you realize that this isn't true. Removing one's genitalia doesn't make the rest of one's body invisible, and women can still see the male typical shoulders, hips, torso shape, jaw, brow ridges, and so on.

Which is just one of many reasons why women's spaces need to be female only.

Yes. Males are often very distinctive by the shape of their backs. As are women. Even the neck. And the stance around the thighs.

Some women have big hands too. They don't look like men. The more I read from Debbie the more I hear the "yes but I'm different", which a. is what everyone says and b. doesn't really matter.

The concept that women don't know what a male looks like makes me make this face:

Every time I'm out alone late at night, or walking somewhere that feels a bit iffy, or in an empty train carriage, I am half-consciously scanning around for other humans. I see a female: oh good, there's another woman here. I see a male: oh dear, bump up the alert level another notch till I figure out if he looks OK or not. Don't make eye contact - use a sideways glance.

My alertness triggers for males. It's a survival instinct.

So please do women the honour of accepting that we know what a male looks like.

I can never figure out if it's wishful thinking, ie they want it to be true that women can't tell, or if there's something about having gender dysphoria that renders person unable to accurately perceive what they and others look like, or if (worst option) most women honestly think "woman" just looks like a pair of boobs and nothing dangling from the groin, woman is an incomplete or deformed man Aristotle style.

Most men, I mean. Most women are quite aware what women look like.

Fully grown adults misgender butch lesbians? fuck me! Should people with that level of observation and reasoning be allowed out on their own? ‘Sexing’ people on their hair length is what under five’s do, not NT adults.

Yes women can be tall, have big hands, strong shoulders, strong jaws, narrow hips, tiny breasts, big feet, deep voices, etc - but it would be extremely rare to see them all on the same woman.

A quick assessment and you can tell who is a woman and it is oddly unsettling when someone tries to deceive you about it.

Re public transport, a couple of years ago I was one of only a handful of women on a bus at night and a young woman (maybe late teens) got on, did that scanning while trying not to make it obvious that you're scanning thing, and looked like she was about to cry with relief when she spotted me. So I moved the bag I'd been using to block the seat next to me, she came over, she sat down, and neither of us said a word. Because I've been that young woman, and someday she'll be the middle aged one whose presence signals safety in a hostile environment.

I'm starting to think trans males are even more oblivious to all of this than the average man is, because acknowledging it would force them to confront things they don't want to think about.