The term "men in dresses"

[AuntMsVanillaRose]

Trans-excluders like to say that they're absolutely fine with boys who don't fit in with gender stereotypes. And I, not one of you, am fine with children not fitting gender stereotypes. But I don't think that is true of all of you. Why is "man in a dress" used as an insult by so many of you?

I think the bar for bullying here is set pretty low.

Sobbing: "I was bullied. Horribly bullied."

"OMG! What did those awful women do? Call you names? Doxxed you? I know, they must have threaten you with physical harm and told you to stop talking."

"They talked about breakfast."

" ... "

Henceforth all clothing should be referred to as fabric.

Leg fabric or arm fabric to distinguish.

This thread is crazy. Obvious troll starts goady post, women show their disdain with food related posts - those silly women get called bullied & deleted. confused
Did anyone really think the op was genuine or kind? Really? No, it's the women who are only allowed to speak when we meet the feminine standards of kindness.
Fuck. That

I tend to agree. Just because someone has a long history of posting does not mean that they are not also a goady fucker and I found the OP fucking goady.

This thread is crazy. Obvious troll starts goady post, women show their disdain with food related posts - those silly women get called bullied & deleted. confused
Did anyone really think the op was genuine or kind? Really? No, it's the women who are only allowed to speak when we meet the feminine standards of kindness.
Fuck. That

I agree.

Don’t really want the media etc to see a thread that has bullying by silencing and ignoring, by mumsnetters.

Because MNetters must behave nicely while being abused.

@MNHQ come on. We're not supposed to point out on a thread when someone is obviously not posting in good faith. FWR members are frequently being used by TRAs for screenshots (mostly of ridiculous things the TRAs have said, often randomly, then pretended what they said was said by a MNetter). We are held to very strict limits on what we're allowed to say, which includes the truth.

Seriously, when an obvious GF turns up and starts hoovering, the recipe talk has become a sufficiently female socialised nice way to point out to other people on the thread not to get sucked in, and to be clear that no, they don't intend to be used. Now apparently either we can be used like good girls to dance when a TRA turns up and demands, or we can shut up and cede the space. This is what self ID looks like. Comply or leave.

What, seriously, is left for women to do here?

What, seriously, is left for women to do here

Personally, I think we should simply ignore - but that's just me. Don't feed a fire....

Seriously, when an obvious GF turns up and starts hoovering, the recipe talk has become a sufficiently female socialised nice way to point out to other people on the thread not to get sucked in, and to be clear that no, they don't intend to be used. Now apparently either we can be used like good girls to dance when a TRA turns up and demands, or we can shut up and cede the space. This is what self ID looks like. Comply or leave.

What, seriously, is left for women to do here?

Exactly the point. Breakfast is the way we indicate our suspicions that we have a GF - because we're not allowed to make the direct accusation.

PERF

I know! And in a bloody national newspaper.

It's the sort of thing you'd expect in a ranty blog, not mainstream media.

Shocking to read, but entirely unsurprising.

Take Eddie Izzard and Grayson Perry. They are men who wear dresses sometimes. Because they like them. Because dresses are great. But they are not women and they don't claim to be women. They are men in dresses

Eddie Izzard decided to jump on the bandwagon and claimed he's always been trans and is now a trans woman. Wonder if it had anything to do with him wanting a piece of political pie?

The OP may well have a long posting history, @HopeMumsnet, but this is the second goady thread I've seen from them in as many days and they certainly aren't interested in debate as evidenced by their attempt to silence me in another thread, and the fact that they haven't returned.

So I think you've called this one wrong.

Bad girl ignoring: refusing to engage and chatting about something harmless and irrelevant like breakfast.

Good girl ignoring: not engaging or posting, hence being nice, being quiet, ceding the space.

Ooh what's the word for that again....? Tip of my tongue. Something around women's rights.

Good girl ignoring: not engaging or posting, hence being nice, being quiet, ceding the space

Nope - sending the thread into oblivion and not giving the OP the pleasure of having riled us and sapped our energy.

I would dearly love a thread like this to have no takers whatsoever. None.

But it's impossible to impose.

I know. I always imagine posters to be like cats with 'the red dot' - cannot ignore, no matter how futile.

I personally quite enjoy these threads due to the randomness of the replies.

“Henceforth all clothing should be referred to as fabric.

Leg fabric or arm fabric to distinguish.”

Bottom fabric or top fabric?

'Men in dresses' is no more derogatory than 'women in trousers'.

If it is more derogatory, it is worth contemplating why. answer misogyny

Thing is, whereas the phrase has been used on Mumsnet, it rarely has been used in the derogatory way that the OP suggests. That's what I find goady about the OP - it's one of those (I realise this is a shocking example) 'How often do you beat your wife' questions.

Reminder of Lang's very informative post from upthread:

A site-specific Google search for the term "men in dresses" on Mumsnet returns 47 results. 2 of those are for this thread. 1 is an image panel of screenshots. 10 are not from the feminist board.

So for all the many months and years of postings, the hundreds upon hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of posts, women on FWR have discussed "men in dresses" 34 times.

34 times.

^https//www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Awww.mumsnet.com+"men+in+dresses^

Men may wear dresses for all sorts of reasons - someone's posted a picture of Kurt Cobain looking very dashing in one, there were also the brickies this summer who wore them to make a political point when shorts were banned on their building site in the middle of a heatwave, maybe they like the swishy feeling, maybe they like the feeling of "transgressing" boundaries. Who cares? It's a free country. Crack on and do it if you want to. I'm a woman and I wear trousers most of the time.

A site-specific Google search

I didn't think of that. I tried the MN search options (which were horrible).

The OP may well have a long posting history, @HopeMumsnet, but this is the second goady thread I've seen from them in as many days and they certainly aren't interested in debate as evidenced by their attempt to silence me in another thread, and the fact that they haven't returned.

Yes I agree. They may post on other issues in good faith but I disagree that they do on this one.

I agree.

Plus, it would have been helpful to have a warning on the breakfast posts rather than to delete them.

Poor show, @MNHQ.

Genuine question: in cultures where men wear garments that are what we would call skirts or dresses or other non-trouser type garments, what do they wear when they identify as trans?

I can see the way things are going, we are going to have to say non-trousers.

Does this mean that we non-men will (sometimes) be wearing non-non-trousers?

in cultures where men wear garments that are what we would call skirts or dresses or other non-trouser type garments, what do they wear when they identify as trans?

The obvious answer is 'whatever the women wear' but the probably more truthful answer is that very few of them do identify as trans