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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Times investigation - paedophile in women's prison

115 replies

tiredandweary · 09/09/2018 07:52

The Sunday Times have followed up on yesterday's article about the convicted sex offender placed in New Hall prison (which worryingly has a mother and baby unit).
Further details about the prisoner's long list of sexual offences and predatory behaviour towards women and children - which makes it unbelievable that the Ministry of Justice would have placed them in a women's prison. Share token here:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-was-convicted-paedophile-allowed-to-move-to-a-female-jail-nmpbfm272?shareToken=44b4789c08c3b46daa187bf986905182

OP posts:
OldCrone · 09/09/2018 12:17

Whats not being mentioned in any of the articles I've read about "Karen White" is the fact that even though Karen is back in the male estate, as a trans prisoner will have the right to have any strip searches carried out by a female prison guard.

Whenever there is a male-bodied transwoman who needs to be strip searched, one of the male prison officers should 'identify as a woman' and carry out the search.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/09/2018 12:21

I'm actually weeping reading this - I can't believe how bloody ridiculous and DANGEROUS this has become.

Beyond awful - but as ginger has said-I feel so powerless!

Why do the voices of these comparatively few MEN count for more than the voices of 000's of vulnerable women and children? Just WHY?

nauticant · 09/09/2018 12:35

I also agree with Beachcomber's post above (at Sun 09-Sep-18 10:06:59).

MinesaBottle · 09/09/2018 12:46

OnlyObjectivity but White doesn't have a GRC by the look of it. From the article:

'Remarkably, even though her full offending record was available to them, her male body was fully intact and she had undergone no physical transition or legal change of gender, they agreed [to the request to put them in a women's prison].'

boldlygoingsomewhere · 09/09/2018 13:04

This case has absolutely disgusted me. It’s appalling that the safety of those women was compromised in this way.

Beachcomber · 09/09/2018 13:26

The lack of GRC makes it all the more inexcusable in terms of the decision making process. There must be an inquiry and not one that just scapegoats one or two people - there must be proper examination of the trans lobbies who have been allowed to influence policies, procedures and thinking. These organisations and the people who run them need to be examined publicly and stopped. They cannot be allowed to continue to groom the public, the state, charities, schools, etc anymore.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2018 13:38

Frances Crook, chief executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform is someone who will be hard to ignore... quote (my bold)

“I am asking them to err on the side of caution, because there is emerging evidence that certain men are jumping on the trans bandwagon to access, and harm, very vulnerable women in prison.”

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/09/2018 13:40

Sorry, didn't mean to press post!

So here we have a penal reformer noting that one of those things that never happen is happening often enough to be forming a trend...

RogerAllamsFangirl · 09/09/2018 13:46

A new collective noun for Things That Never Happen: a Trend.

Sorry if that sounds flippant. I don't feel flippant on the inside. In fact I don't identify as flippant. Oops. Will stop now.

seafret · 09/09/2018 13:49

Totally, utterly apalling.

There is also some suggestion in the artcle the Wood/Thompson/White showed no signs of being transgender in the past. I would suggest that this does not necessarily mean that he is simply a man taking advantage of a loophole, but just that our understanding of what (MH) conditions can manifest with trans symptoms is too limited (and being purposely limited and steered towards the people that of course are sympathetic and harmless and have been victims).

To my mind being trans in any capacity is part of a MH disorder, which like other MH disorders, may be dangerous to the person and/or to others or not, and caused by (some serious interruption of normal psychological and identity development - in many cases CSA with strong humilation events and lack of any safe parental figures, and some underlying susceptibility perhaps) and the problem is that most people simply don't have an accurate understanding of what these conditions look like in RL outside of the cliches.

We have the trope of everyone on MN knowing a narc, but actually this is true, but it is the slightly less obvious ones we need to worry about, where we (FWRers excluded after direct experience usually) and polticians etc can be totally hoodwinked by these men with high functioning, high masking, highly adaptive malignant pathologies. I do believe that some of their strategies are not necesarily under their deliberate control - like a narc rage - there is so much underlying denial and disorder that control over that is to some extent a facade - it is merely them managing their symptoms - like trying to control the flow of lava. That is the danger I think, that we see control and choice where I think actually it is not control and choice in the way that healthy people make these choices.

I don't say this to absolve them, far from it, I say this because i think it is worse than we think sometimes, that so many of these dangerous men are so warped that they need serious MH treatment, not simply prison punishment as if they may be punished and redeemed by normal means - they cannot be. We need to recognise that and do more.

Many needed psychological inpatient treatment way before any trans stuff was identified. The trend to demedicalise everything is actually very dangerous sometimes. Misogyny IMO often goes way beyond 'normal', healthy, psychological processes. I think we would benefit from pathlogising some of its manifestations, rather than seeing it as a mere lifestyle choice or socialisation that can be easily changed or educated out of.

It is easy to underestimate the mental/ psycholgical processes/ tricks/denials etc that are at work here because they are so alien to normal people - even we we think we get it.

That the drive for mental/emotional 'survival' (and the warped definition of survival for those who have suffered serious MH threats/ disturbances), the preservation of denial etc is as strong a motivator as hunger or thirst or fire, and what people will do to preserve their own MH stability and constructs even if that is by deviant/unhealthy damaging strategies. They may also be patient and stealthy as with some long term trans campaigners and the determiantion of groomers etc, not all by overtly violent means. But IMO these are all beyond normal methods of repair.

Some one on another thread was talking about the dangers of looking into the abyss to closely for too long - but this is actually what we need to make the woke people do.

We must have safeguarding and intelligent MH educated safeguarding to push back aganst this. Feminist social based arguments alone are not enough I beilieve as this goes beyond mere social conditioning. Unfortunately some MH professionals have been got at from the inside as with other walks of life by these persistent behind the scenes, and of course as said on other threads.

As so many have said, there are powerful men who benefit from all this behind the scenes.

Somehow we have to do more.

seafret · 09/09/2018 14:25

I mean, with his history, why is Wood/Thompson/White not in Broadmoor?

I think perhaps it is a 'trap' that suits these men, these certain conditions, to say that actually they have a choice, so we can exercise our natural human wish for justice (righteous retribution even) and punish them and hold them accountable, meanwhile they can simply await their be release through the ridiculously naive and underfunded system that exists right now, many now identifying away from being the person that committed their crime.

To me, considering that these men do not have a the same mentla processes and choices as normal people, that they are compelled to some degree and can choose from choices/options that are not even in the sight of most normal people, is actually to say that maybe (quite likely even) that they cannot be saved or redeemed except through intensive psycholgical means, if at all.

To me, secure psychiatric inprisonment this does NOT make them any less accountable or that a secure psychiatric treatment is a 'soft option' (where did that come from anyway?), it says to me that these men are more dangerous, more severely wrong in the head and dangerous and irredeemable by normal means.

It does not mean that they get to be let off as if in a hotel, they should be treated rigourously and that we should have the utmost scepticism when it comes to their 'recovery' and release (if ever).

I think we should and need to be able to ee this outcome as 'justice' every bit as much as them being in normal prison 'being punished', so long as we are assured that the institutions do not become groomed by the patients themselves. The mental rigour needed to withstand such people is immense.

The serial rapist Worboys, could/should have been treated this way.

FloralBunting · 09/09/2018 14:45

Right, I've calmed down a little from the shock of reading about White's previous crimes involving rape in a mixed sex psychiatric ward. I'm not one for too much trendy language, but I found that more than a little triggering.

Now the shock and snotty tears have given way to steel tipped anger. What can I do? What practical things can I do to try and challenge this? Who do I write to? Who needs crowdfunding support? Are there any railings I can chain myself to?

seafret · 09/09/2018 14:53

Here thinking the same Floral. We'll patch up our resilience with action.

Facknats · 09/09/2018 15:02

" Frances Crook, chief executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform, said prison managers had to make decisions about trans offenders “in a toxic political environment where some campaigners are pushing very hard on trans rights."

This is the single largest issue with the political environment; safeguarding cannot work where there is extreme judicial threat against allegations of transphobia.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/09/2018 15:50

Now the shock and snotty tears have given way to steel tipped anger. What can I do? What practical things can I do to try and challenge this? Who do I write to? Who needs crowdfunding support? Are there any railings I can chain myself to?

This is what I want to know, too - it's what we should all be asking.

tiredandweary · 09/09/2018 16:15

FloralBunting
The Prison Officer's Association want an enquiry. Think we should be asking for that. I know we keep saying 'write to our MPs' but we really need to email them about this - maybe with the Times link to the story.

I am hopeful that now the Press are onto this, they will continue (start for the BBC / Guardian) asking more in depth questions.

I'm about to email my MP now and ask him who authorised the decision, will there be any consequences given that women were actually harmed and, most importantly, why are the government sanctioning putting male sex offenders in women's prisons?

OP posts:
Ofew · 09/09/2018 16:19

This case is even worse than I had realised.

The only positive is that I think the tide is turning and this issue is finally being discussed in public with less fear of being accused of transphobia.

But it's absolutely tragic that it takes the rape and abuse of numerous women and girls to get this issue even close to the mainstream media.

speakingwoman · 09/09/2018 16:21

I think it may be time for a “do one thing” thread.

Better than crying.

HairyAntoinette · 09/09/2018 16:29

Katara - I phoned the times the other week to cancel my subscription as I couldn't justify the usual 24/month. They offered me phone + PC access for just 8/month which I happily accepted. I never use the tablet anyway. Make sure you download the freebie book and rent the film and it's all a very good deal. And of course we continue to support this fabulous organisation.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 09/09/2018 16:34

There must be an inquiry and not one that just scapegoats one or two people - there must be proper examination of the trans lobbies who have been allowed to influence policies, procedures and thinking

This.

FloralBunting · 09/09/2018 16:36

Right, just emailed my MP. Feel slightly better.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/09/2018 16:44

I've just e-mailed my MP, too. As you say - feeling a little better, but my word, I really feel that this is something I want take to the streets about.

Ereshkigal · 09/09/2018 16:49

Katara - I phoned the times the other week to cancel my subscription as I couldn't justify the usual 24/month. They offered me phone + PC access for just 8/month which I happily accepted. I never use the tablet anyway. Make sure you download the freebie book and rent the film and it's all a very good deal. And of course we continue to support this fabulous organisation.

Yes I went with the same offer. So glad I did.

AngryAttackKittens · 09/09/2018 16:52

Did anyone else notice that the article suggests that this person raped a woman while out on remand and was not then returned to prison?

Apparently putting rapists in women's prisons is part of a more general "let's make it as easy as possible for them to reoffend" policy.

LangCleg · 09/09/2018 16:59

Did anyone else notice that the article suggests that this person raped a woman while out on remand and was not then returned to prison?

Yep. And that one of the rapes took place in a bail hostel, something Fair Play For Women warned about in December last year:

fairplayforwomen.com/impact-gra-reform-community-probation-hostels-safety-concerns-women-residents-local-community/