Does this person have a point about trans women in loos?

[HamsterToast]

To be fair I have seen people say this about trans women. Thoughts?

*and no I'm not a trans troll stalking in disguise. Although that is what a trans troll stalking in disguise would say ......

I think most feminists I've read have said the removal of the penis is a hugely regrettable, but understandable thing for someone with extreme dysphoria to have done to help them cope. It's not a life goal, shall we say, and no one, anywhere, should feel coerced into it.

There are plenty of men under the trans umbrella who fucking love their penis and wouldn't dream of removing it. They shouldn't have to, of course.

But the penis is not a neutral appendage, and, like it or not, it's presence makes an actual difference in real things.

It's not a double bind. It's a situation created by men who have piggybacked onto dysphoric people's distress to guilt women into acquiescing to unreasonable demands.

floral thanks for putting it so well.

RLE doesn't require using women only spaces.
It does require living as your target identity.
It's rare that I access women only spaces whilst going about everyday life as a woman - almost everything I do is mixed sex, mixed gender.

Yep, being socially acceptable as a woman is impossible and you will be constantly criticised for all your choices.
Welcome to being a woman. This is what everyday life is always like for those of us born female.
Constant criticism and pressure over the smallest of choices. Constant criticism. Don't go outside without removing or concealing your revolting body hair, you'll get hassled by strangers.
Too much makeup? Asking for it.
Not enough makeup? Make some effort, love.
This is what being a woman is like.
Trans women haven't seen this before, haven't had to notice it, because they've been protected by male privilege. Then they start getting some idea of what women have had to struggle under our whole lives. So some of them lash out, because being raised as men, they have always been able to expect that other people will do the work of making them emotionally comfortable.
A woman's place is in the wrong. Always. Don't like it? Then attack patriarchy, not women.

How has it come to pass that problems, which have fuck all to do with us, are up to us to solve? What's going on? Do men think all women are their loving Mummies?

Well it is the responsibility of feminists to solve men's problems. If they focus on their own then they are bigots and feminazis

Trans women haven't seen this before, haven't had to notice it, because they've been protected by male privilege.

I've thought this. While they seem to think this is transphobia, it's not. It's what women go through every day. Ironically if they realised this then they might feel better, the authentic 'woman' experience.

Although in theory we are expected to use ladies loos etc during RLE, the vast majority of us accept that pre everything that isn’t comfortable for us and more importantly those we share these spaces with.

We will try to hunt out neutral loos, though a time or two I held on until I got home. It was only once HRT had started feminising my face, several months, that I started using the ladies.

Very few of us are insensitive enough that we’d share a communal changing area pre-op.

There should be no exceptions to the law on single sex spaces. None.

There are ways of avoiding having to use women's toilets - think of the lone dads with small daughters who seem to get by. They recognise that they have no entitlement to enter. They tend to ask women to keep a look out for the child or they use the mixed sex disabled facilities.

Once there is a precedent that chip-chip-chips away at single sex spaces then we're back to square one.

Totally agree UndercoverGC

I'm not bothered by unassuming people who seem genuinely to want to visit the ladies loo, its mostly cubicles anyway. I don't care if the person is dressed male/female/whatever as long as they're going in a loo then washing their hands and leaving. I spend quite a bit of time in France and while I'm not really keen on unisex toilet spaces I've been in a few without problem (except they always stink). More sensitive female spaces though, are of course a different matter. Places where vulnerable people are, need increased protection. Laws which make it harder to protect the vulnerable are to be avoided.

Although in theory we are expected to use ladies loos etc during RLE, the vast majority of us accept that pre everything that isn’t comfortable for us and more importantly those we share these spaces with.

Bronners78 - that's very helpful information. Thank you.

Very few of us are insensitive enough that we’d share a communal changing area pre-op.

But you're talking about pre op transsexuals who have gender dysphoria, not every male under the trans umbrella.

Im really struggling at the minute. I read here a LOT. I rarely post because I'm not smart or articulate, I find it hard to put into words what I mean or feel. This though, this bothers me so much. You can't 'live' the experience of a woman unless you are one. Unless you were a girl who now is one. You can't understand all those tiny microaggressions that start when you're 11/12/13 and that continue until you become invisible and then an old bat/hag. I don't care about transsexuals, old school, using the ladies. The ones I know are decent people who know what we all know. I'm genuinely frightened by the way my language is being policed. By the way men rapists are called she. It's not about the bloody toilets

Do men think all women are their loving Mummies?

I get the strongest feeling the answer to that is Yes. The older I get, the stronger the feeling gets.

Garbled absolute rubbish there. I did say I wasn't articulate.

I meant my post, not yours Toe.

NTDNHAP.

Lagertha

Mine was said with a sort of heavy sigh...

All these news stories recently - Jess Bradley etc - and this is still about women being meanies about their single sex spaces.

@LagerthaTheShieldMaiden - not garbled rubbish at all. Completely articulate and am totally agree.

Btw Lagertha, your post makes perfect sense to me. Exactly how I feel.

But something so strange is happening at the moment, it's hard to put it into words. But certain trans-activists are making such wild claims on femininity and womanhood that it does just feel like a wholesale erasure of actual womanhood, of growing up female. Womanhood being fetishised into some sort of porn-soaked male fantasy.

A prime example is on another thread on FWR right now with L Madigan talking about taking estrogen and posting pictures of their 'new' breasts on instagram. Actual fetishisation and exhibitionism of female puberty.

The idea that using the women's bogs means that you understand what it's like to 'live as a woman' is hilarious.

I agree with @placemats post at 19:46

I don't think the quote in the OP is accurate at all.

I think it is right that most women don't have a problem with transsexual women using the women's loos.

But lived experience doesn't "require using women's spaces" any more than being a woman requires you only to use women's spaces. It means making meaningful changes to the way that you are perceived in mixed spaces, so changing name, mode of dress, hair etc to be in keeping with what is expected of women. It doesn't prohibit someone from using the mixed changing rooms at a swimming pool because they have to prove their gender by using the women's, for example!

I'm genuinely frightened by the way my language is being policed. By the way men rapists are called she. It's not about the bloody toilets

me too

Oh thanks wimms. I really struggle with knowing what I can and can't say. I've got a big issue with being told to lie. I think it's my own mental state that causes that, I have aspergers and I find it difficult not to speak as I see but I honestly try.

Bertrand often posts to say that she (I assume that poster is a woman) would like someone to spell it out in black and white how TWAW and then she could digest and think. I'm the same. I'd like to read something that convinced me. I just don't think I can. I'm no scientist, I'm a secretary. I think men are males who were born boys. I know humans can't change sex. I know some men feel happier presenting as women, in as far as woman means dress, heels, lipstick, nail polish.

My daughter is 15. She's being told at school, right now, that the toilets are becoming gender non-specific. My daughter has awful periods, has since she started at 12. Flooding, 2 week cycles, clots, cramps that debilitate. I can't believe she's meant to share that with a 16 year old boy who likes eyeliner and glitter. I'm really mad.