'Well-behaved' girls 'socialising' 'challenging' boys at primary school

[Polynerd]

I just saw a casual mention on Twitter of the phenomenon of well-behaved girls being sat next to challenging boys to 'socialise' them. I was totally shocked because I suddenly realised that my youngest (going into Y2) has mentioned to me that this had happened to her. Is this something that happens regularly? Should I be talking to next year's teacher about this? I don't want my six-year-old daughter thinking it is her responsibility to make a load of six-year-old boys conform to classroom behavioural standards.

Yea they need to sit some where.

They also need their behaviour to be dealt with.

Instead if pretending it's not happening. Do t leave it til they don't give a shit any more in year 6 when they tower over the teachers and are leaving soon.

Deal with it earlier so it doesn't get to the point you have to wonder where to put them

Yea they need to sit some where.
They also need their behaviour to be dealt with
The two can go hand in hand.
Deal with it earlier so it doesn't get to the point you have to wonder where to put them
I would agree. But then i tend to find I get quite a lot of mid year moves into my class, mainly students who have been disruptive in their previous class so I end up picking up students who are arriving with what they think is a badge of honour... only to quickly realise that the vast majority of studnets in my class have got used to disruption free learning and so don't really give a shit if they want to try and fire elastic bands across the room. Eventually most get quite bored of trying to disrupt.

Maisy I said, I can see where you are coming from.
I can also see why you wouldn’t sit a disruptive child next to another disruptive child (recipe for disaster!).

The issue I have is that, unfortunately, the reality of primary school, for my own dcs, is that it’s alway the same 3 children who are sat next to the disruptive child...
Not 75% of the children that are sharing the burden.

Eventually?

So the class is disrupted then for a period of time at least?

If this is a tool that's is used very widely by schools and you get alot of mid year transfers from kids kicked out of other schools then surely it's clear that the approach doesn't work really?

And if they get bored then what? Have they really learnt to behave or are they just waiting for an audience that will pay more attention? Can you be confident that they will go to the next school and behave themselves?

Have they really learnt anything?

I've never put a more challenging child next to a quiet child for 'socialisation'. No idea what that would achieve or even entail. I have split disruptive children up or in extremes moved a child to sit on their own but usually there isn't the space for that.

Classroom teachers cannot magic up extra staff, extra teaching spaces, miracle cures or spaces in oversubscribed special schools and referal units. They have children in front of them that need to be taught with limited time and resources.

I have no doubt that many children will pick up the message that they are there to control or modify another child's behaviour which isn't right. However, options are limited unless schools have more evidence based practise, a more enlightened view of additional needs and a fuck tonne of money.

HermioneGoesBackHome
If the same 3 children get hit with it then that is lazy seating (as I said in my first post)
Gileswithachainsaw
The thing with teenagers is it takes a bit of time for them to push and work out boundaries with staff.
A couple of weeks having to remind a new arrival of entry routines, to put their hand up, that they need to pay attention to me instead to trying to catch the attention of others (who are paying attention) is perfectly reasonable.

We get quite a bit of mid year transfers because we have great behaviour and the vast majority of our students are well behaved, we have high expectations etc. Obviously like any comprehensive we have a pocket, but they don't dominate.

Generally, once a student realises they havent an audience they start listening, when listen over distracting they start to learn content, when they learn content they are better able to complete the work (instead of deflecting with 'this is stupid and I can't do it), they get their work back with positive comments and they see their grades go up, they get praise and get to see what it is to succeed. So yes, they do learn something.
Supporting children to change behaviour patterns gives them better options.

I love MN at times. One minute you have posts saying how the teacher is utterly unreasonable for keeping a child in at break for talking because it was only talking and the next we're wrong for keeping a child who might talk a bit in clas because it disrupts others.

DD2 is not unusually bright >> she's standard normal level

What she is, is:
Stoic
Uncomplaining (whole family has a "just get on with it sometimes you are dealt a rough hand" approach which comes from my parents TBH and is not always a good thing

She will not put her hand up in class or tell the teacher when she is being kicked etc.
When she has told me it's when it's been going on for ages.

To those who say "well he has to sit somewhere" >> why not sit him next to someone who won't take it? And quietly "get on with it" while being booted etc?

The teachers told me that apparently next to her he is "starting to settle down a bit" so from their perspective all was good. What it is, is that he can focus on her, and her job is not to make a fuss. That's what it boils down to.

This happened to DD this year just finished (Yr3). I didn’t realise it at the time, but she told me, rather forcefully, that she would rather be at a girls’ school ‘with no stupid boys messing up the tables’ and on a separate occasion, that sitting with these boys had disrupted her learning, so she couldn’t always understand what was wanted from the teacher etc.

I will feed this back to the school that whilst I understand this is a thing, I do not want it happening to DD again and they need to find other ways of handling these boys. I know one of the boys quite well and to say his parents are flimflammy would be an understatement. Well, they need to step the fuck up and parent their son. And whilst I liked her y3 teacher, she didn’t seem to have such good crowd control of her class and was rather more shouty that her y1 and 2 teachers who could control the class with a look and never raised their voices. She was next to another ‘boisterous’ boy in Y2 but she got so fed up of him I complained and the boy was moved immediately and her teacher apologised for not noticing what had been going on.

From a societal point of view it is essential that girls are not taught that boys’ bad behaviour is for them to deal with, control, change etc. Unfortunately I think that schools quite often, and probably not actually meaning to, reinforce this idea.

@ zzzz post.

So I should go in and thank the staff for putting DD in a position where she gets kicked and her work disrupted because she will just sit there and take it.

Not every teacher and not every school and not every child is the same.

For some it has been done well and it worked. Great.

Why so dismissive of those who have different situations, to the point of absolutely not intervening or having a word under any circs? Trust the teachers to do the right thing. So, my child makes the occasional disclosure that she is always sat next to the boy who kicks her and takes her pens and all that. I should say, thats' not a problem, your teacher knows what they are doing.

zzzz don't you put this on my DD.

How can I teach her when to speak up if I'm not there for fuck's sake?

It's the fault of children who are shy / quiet / stoic?

That seems a bit victim blamey to me. Telling children that something that someone else does to the, is their own fault, as they didn't speak up?

This goes into adulthood for women doesn't it.

Look it's my actual DD in this sutuation, understand that this is personal and upsetting to me.

The implication that she is defective in her personality and / or has not been brought up correctly has not landed well.

Do you have ANYTHING to say about the child who is kicking her, or is it all her own fault?

This absolutely reminds me of the victim blaming that is applied to adult women when they are subject to bad behaviour from men.

But why are you treating being shy or quiet and stoic as some kind of problem. It's personality. Not something to be used to someone's advantage. And why does everything have to be a lesson in some way. What is wrong with wanting to be quiet and get on with things. I am sympathetic to any problems a kid may have. I am of course sympathetic to the issues teachers face. But trying to make these things Into some kind of learning tool..

I have talked to her teacher. I said why is she always sat next to this boy who is known to be difficult and kicks her all the time.

They said that it was working as his behaviour had improved (from their perspective).

Your idea is.. what exactly. She's 7. She being phycially hurt in class. Youur entire focus is on what she is "doing wrong" and not one mention of the person who is hurting her.

Your attitude stinks. Telling girls that bad behaviour from boys is theirs to "handle" is appalling and leads to girls not disclosing much worse.

This is a microcosm of society that we are seeing in your posts. A male is aggressive to a female. What did she do wrong? How can she learn to better control him in future? Is it her responsibiltiy to do so? Yes. Anything to say about the aggressive male? No, aggressive males are a fact of life and women / girls need to learn "stategies" to deal with it.

NothingOnTellyAgain
That's awful.
It is not your child's job to 'rub off on a child.
That said, she absolutely does need to learn to speak out. It's no good saying 'oh our whole family are like that and put up'

As an aside, I think what people need to realise on this thread is that a seating strategy is just one part of classroom management. It isn't a substitute for praise and positive reinforcement. It isn't a substitute for high expextations of students. It isn't a substitute for sanctions.

I could give my classes the option to sit where they like every lesson and whilst it wouldn't be the best for their learning overall, they wouldn't be rude, they wouldn't be kicking each other etc.

You cabt use kid with those qualities to your advantage then simultaneously say it's their fault for not saying anythung

Seriously

zzzz if being shy or stoci is a problem (sersiouly? it's a perfectly normal way to be not a "problem") then the teachers should surely have identified this problem and have sat DD with someone in class who is best placed to help her with this "problem". The best placed one to help would probably be a girl who is confident and encouraging and so on, a role model, not her current partner.

Or are you in the "sink or swim" school of thought, as well as diagnosing problem personalitieis in Yr 3 children?

I try Maisy!

But, it's just how they are - they're both like that and so am I

We even did some role play

Even when they were little, if they fell over and hurt themselves they barely shed a tear and were up and at it again in no time.

Being resilient / stoic used to be seen as positive character traits. Maybe moreso in boys?

That said, she absolutely does need to learn to speak out.

Can I laugh there? Because the reality is that it’s not enough to say to a child ‘they need to speak up and tell the teacher’
When you have a child who will not speak to the teacher at all ever, what do you think it will acheive?
How do you think it will improve things for that child if said child only speak to a few handful of her peers, let alone adults?

I actually agree with Nothing. It’s not good enough to just rely on the child (boy or girl) to speak up and then put the responsibility into their shoulders ‘because they didn’t speak up’.
If a child who is struggling to move around was getting hit by the wide arm movements of the disruptive child you wouldn't tell them it’s their responsibility to get out of the way. That’s not different.

Fwiw, ime, said children do learn to speak up. But not in a week or month or a year. My own dc didn’t speak up until he was in Y9 when he was ‘bothered’ by other disruptive behaviours
(The first time he spoke up was to ask to move tak le after a child has purposely pour a glass of water on his drawing in Art. The teacher hasn’t moved either him or the disruptive child)

Until then they have the right to be protected from such behaviours.