'Well-behaved' girls 'socialising' 'challenging' boys at primary school

[Polynerd]

I just saw a casual mention on Twitter of the phenomenon of well-behaved girls being sat next to challenging boys to 'socialise' them. I was totally shocked because I suddenly realised that my youngest (going into Y2) has mentioned to me that this had happened to her. Is this something that happens regularly? Should I be talking to next year's teacher about this? I don't want my six-year-old daughter thinking it is her responsibility to make a load of six-year-old boys conform to classroom behavioural standards.

I was at a highly respected Sunday drama school from age 10-17 and really needed to get an A or above in my drama and theatre GCSE to get into the drama course to do at a college. They put me with 4 people that didn't give a crap about drama for my group work to 'pull them up a bit'. I almost had a nervous breakdown with the stress.

It's totally out of order and definitely happens.

As for the group work being dismissed as mumbo jumbo... well. Not sure where to start! Speaking and listening skills (especially important in schools with lots of pupils with EAL) are developed, understanding of how they are learning (metacognition), questioning each others ideas, bouncing ideas off each others, like adults do in grown up work. Developing empathy (god forbid!)

Can I just share my experience of group work. I was not a popular child. Didnt really fit in. Spent my break times mainly on my own. When it came to group work the other kids did what they wanted. They didnt really talk to me or listen to me. You then have to hand in or present work which you have very little understanding of and the teacher has no clue you don't know any of it. Not entirely sure how that's particularly helpful.

I'm sure girls do hear the brunt of this.

This has also happened to my son who is quiet.
The kids do get fed up and by the end of primary he was v cynical.
One girl he used to havd to sit by and now in still his class at high school has thumped him on the bus home from secondary because she overheard him saying she's "a pain". So he wasnt blameless but basically it's not unusual for her.

I think It's a consequence of inclusion and treating bullies as victims.

The less violent get thumped. Thanks school.

Yes it happens and benefits both parties. It certainly isn’t detrimental to the high achiever who can consolidate their learning through explaining and supporting a less able peer. In return, they get a better relationship and respect from someone who might have been less than kind on the playground. It’s a win win. The idea that bad behaviour is catching just doesn’t hold water.
My children grew up living alongside children with very, very challenging behaviours. Their climbing frame was put together by youngsters with criminal records. When I was in labour with my second, my eldest was cared for by a young adult foster child who had lost his licence before he’d passed his test and was prosecuted for arson. In secondary school they were always sat next to the problem children as they could often control in a way the teacher couldn’t because of years of experience.
Mine are well behaved, high achievers and very confident young adults.

Wehll, the head of OFSTED disagrees with you, Cyberworrier, and claims that mixed ability classes are detrimental to the more able students.

Just because the more able ones are "doing fiine" does not mean they couldn't be doing more, and you KNOW that. Of course it's nicer to have a class of B and C students rather than a class of A and D students but what about the B students that could have been A?

Yes it happens and benefits both parties. It certainly isn’t detrimental to the high achiever who can consolidate their learning through explaining and supporting a less able peer. In return, they get a better relationship and respect from someone who might have been less than kind on the playground. It’s a win win. The idea that bad behaviour is catching just doesn’t hold water

So bad behaviour isn't catching but good is?

Please tell me how bad g sandwiched between to kids manspreading over all the desk space or being obstructed from seeing the board is beneficial?

If the idea is to influence the kids then why is it not the assertive kids picked but the quiet ones who don't bother the teacher complaining?

I agree with berry

Although it happened with my son ive no doubts that girls take the brunt of this

The trouble is it will stress some girls and not others so the teacher needs to be very on the ball with any problems that may arise with the girl

And i hate it when they put mixed drama groups on for gcse.....one person not giving a shit can pull everyones grades down

In fairness, Amanda Spielman has never taught, never led a school and has no formal training in education.

Gileswithachainsaw I didn’t think I said bad behaviour was a good thing. The teachers have to manage it as they now have high numbers of children with behavioural problems in classes - whether that be children with SEN, children from chaotfamilies or just plain lazy/inept parenting.

What I’m saying is that the behaviour isn’t catching. Being near children with SEN or naughty children doesn’t mean your child will be naughty too. The benefits are that all children grow up more tolerant and accepting of differences.
It is the teachers responsibility to continuously monitor and adjust the plan, if necessary. We either have integration or we don’t. Given the number of children with additional needs being identified now, there aren’t enough special school places for them and SEN is woefully underfunded.

@CherryPavlova no one in this thread had said bad behaviour is catching, except you.

What they have said is that the pressure and expectation to manage the existing bad behaviour is too much. Entirely different.

Cherry you can't make blanket statements like that.

You can't say that it will always benefit both children.

This has happened to my DD2 - how does having to sit next to a boy who kicks her under the table, distracts her from her work, takes her pens / pencils off her etc help my DD? Apart from teaching her that it's her role in life to put up with bad behaviour from males for some "greater good"?

When I went in to talk to them about it, they explcitly said that they had put him next to her as he was difficult and they thought she could cope and might calm him down. I requested that next round of table moves they be split up as it wasn't fair that they were always paired (they were put together in other activities as well out of the classroom). So then he was moved away and bingo few weeks later back again. It makes her life at school stressful and difficult. How is this beneficial for her? I am very interested to know.

I agree that it is not just well behaved girls that are "employed" to do this. My well behaved boys were too!

Dd and a group of her friends were expected to look after a boy who had a neglected and abusive background.
When he inevitably lost it they (a group of 9 year olds) were held responsible.

IME it highlights the shortcomings of schools in supporting children who may be disabled and need a different approach. Having an autistic son we experienced a hell of a lot of Buck passing and dismissal. Expecting able children to manage less able children is more of the same.

cherry

The point I was making is that if behaviour isn't catching then there's no other point other than making life easier for the teacher Is sacrificing one kids education for some "greater good"

All this bull shit about teaching empathy and treating it like sone kind of privilege to be able to pass on what you have learnt is what we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better about what the situation really is.

Which is using one child as a metaphorical and/or sometimes physical punch bag so no one has to do anything about the problem.

This mixing can really backfire. Not proud to admit this but I left school thinking a. Not everyone is worth educating at secondary school, b. Not everyone should be allowed to have children

That said I once had a science partner where this worked because he liked playing with fire and acid and I was good at science so we balanced each other quite well.

Cos funnily enough when the plan cabt be used like out if school or pe or the play ground lo and behold the bullies bully. The taunts and fights start. Or the undesirable behaviour starts over again

So what a it solved? Absolutely nothing.

Some articles about the lack of research supporting heavy reliance on group work, and some of the problems with it:

www.leeds.ac.uk/educol/documents/00002181.htm

www.aft.org/ae/spring2015/bennett

Giles, I’m sorry for your experiences at school. Sounds like a poorly managed classroom environment and a shabby attempt at group work.

Many teachers and education professionals disagree with each other! Ofsted leader is not the education equivalent of the Dalai Lama/ a wise Guru.

I don’t think Cherry is making blanket statements, I think she is trying to offer an explanation as to why this may happen at schools and why it isn’t always a bad thing.

I think we could all find anecdotes that support our own perspectives.

I have never seen children held responsible for the behaviour of those they are sat with- that is obviously unfair.

It is important to remember parents don’t know the backstories of all children in a class or reasons for everything happening in a classroom? They also don’t see everything that happens with dynamics between children. It is also a fact that unfortunately schools are massively overstretched and a lot of teachers are understandably struggling .

In good practice, mixed ability and mixed seating can work very well. Bad teachers can make any teaching style unsuccessful.

Any teacher wilfully or unknowingly ignoring the needs of a child in their class is doing something wrong and there is of course a problem there!

i had no idea that this happened! (bit late to all this parenting thing) but there is no doubt in my mind that the girls will be disadvantaged by this. Here's a thought - why don't I spend a day in class sitting next to their bloody parents. I would quite happily "assist" with their behaviour!

My daughter was partnered with a boy with 'challenging behaviour' in primary school in Yr 5 not always and only in the afternoon. She was the bright child in her class and a quiet and somewhat introverted child. However, she liked him and was happy with the arrangement. The teacher discussed it with us as parents and we discussed it with our daughter. Nothing contentious at all.

The young boy's foster parents thanked us. He settled better in class and turned out to be a bright and more engaging pupil, with some issues still, obviously.

Oh and it didn't impact on her academic success at all.

placemats

That sounds like a really great outcome for all concerned. It's really good that your school discussed it and gained your daughter's consent. It strikes me, though, that here's a potential issue there of how much a teacher is able to share with other parents about another child. And that being the case it can happen in a rather less 'open' way, making girls - who as I said are often give big praise for their self-sacrifice - the ones to suffer.

Any policy that makes fellow pupils responsible for the progress or behaviour of their peers is reprehensible.

Happened to me, many decades ago.

Hence the truism, mixed schools are best for boys, girls schools are best for girls.

"Yes it happens and benefits both parties."

This is 100% a blanket statement.