What makes men angry with women?

[Italiangreyhound]

What makes men angry with women?

Is this article of any interest? Does it offer any incites?

goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hidden-reason-men-angry-women-over-nothing-chwm/

Thanks in advance if anyone reads it.

Baumederose 'Yes, I think alot of what telly wrote applies today. To modern life. It's better than it was but we still live in a patriarchy. Men still make the rules and overwhelmingly hold the wealth and power.'

Ok so I completely agree but what o am trying to get arc is why. Why the hate. I don't exactly equate the hate and the control.

The fact that a lot of what is being spoken of is modern manifestations doesn't for me answer where it comes from.

"When women didn't work (generalising again) and the only role of man was to put food on the table"

It's always pointed out (rightly) that the idea that women didn't work was a small number of wealthier women in a small part of history.

In general women have always worked - before money etc doing the farm / etc and then after industrial revolution as well.

PLus all the stuff in the home.

Look around the world and you see a lot of countries where the women are angry because the women do all the work >> raising crops, animals,children,you name it, and the men lounge around the place.

The idea of man the provider >> with capitalism men can control us through controlling the means of survival. Food, shelter,it costs money, the men control the money. Short story.

Baumederose - yes - and of course men could do what they wanted to their wives / children / buy prostituted women and children and do whatever.

No need to watch it.

The mainstreaming of ever increasingly violent het porn is an issue though as it normalises it for those who might otherwise not have sought it.

Short answer from me is I think (and this will set the NAMALTers off)

The fact that a lot of what is being spoken of is modern manifestations doesn't for me answer where it comes from.

1. Because they can (bigger stronger)
2. Babies (need to mskre sure they are theirs)

Ok so I completely agree but what o am trying to get arc is why. Why the hate. I don't exactly equate the hate and the control.

1. Because, essentially, they are weak and scared. They are scared because they treat us badly and deep down they know it, but they need us, because they are weak, and they worry we might stop giving them what they want, but not enough to stop treating us badly. Thus they need to dehumaise us to justify the whole thing

Is my take.

Women have been chattel since forever. Only recently we are not. In name anyway. This seems to cause a massive issue for lots of men (although they wouldn'y identify that that is what their issue is).

Any group that does wrong by another group needs to dehumanise them.

The awful things that have been done to "inferior" people of various sorts, are done because the oppressors have a horrible suspicion that they are not actually inferior at all. They are not really confident in it.See earthworm point.

Why the hate?

If youre addicted to something, in that you have a physical and psychological urge for something, you begin to hate the hold and power it has over you.

Do you rationally think, it's just my hormones, it's not real? Or do you get angry and hate the thing that in your mind 'makes' you desire it?

Do you hate or blame your urges? Or do you blame or hate the object/person that brings those urges out in you?

'Do you mean you disagree with being sure they are the father as the reason for the anger and control?'

I do not believe men's whole reason for being angry with women is about whether they are the biological father of their children.

However, individual men may be angry about this.

'Men rely on women for their emotional support, more than women rely on men.' To some extent I agree but feel some men do not rely on women for this.

'Some argue that men view sex as an expression of love; a safe haven; one of the only places they can let their defences down. And that this is of great importance to men overall who wont want that jeopardized. Hence wanting to control and keep that in place; the fear of loss is high.'

I can imagine a man saying it, I can't really see it. And if it is true, why?

'... the aggression is still the same because it's biological and hormonal and to a great extent innate behaviour, driven by reproductive urges.' If it is innate doesn't that free men of responsibility for it? Sounds like a man's argument to me! I am not saying you are a man!

'Reproduction and women have evolved and changed over the centuries'

How, has it changed biologically? if it is innate then biology matters. The basics have not changed. You say '...but the drivers havent.'

I'd say the only things that have changed now are women's abilities to say no to sex, the opportunity for safe and successful birth control, and medical help with pregnancy, birth and fertility. The mechanics are the same.

'Apologies if I've missed the entire point of what you meant.' You have not missed anything but I just don't agree this is the route of the anger completely, thought it does undoubtedly add to it! And is part of it.

NothingOnTellyAgain very good points.

I feel we need to go further back in history to work out where the root is.

Baumederose I don't understand the hate you describe. It's not something I know so cannot really imagine it.

Is there any female comparison you can come up with?

I am not saying I am right, by the way.!

Personally I think men are angry with women because they can be. They have been enabled throughout history to do what they want to us - probably at the beginning because they were bigger so they could hurt us more and then as time’s gone by it’s been cemented with religions and laws and rules and customs. So much anger and hate is minimised, written off and ignored - if someone lets you act like an arsehole and there’s no comeback where’s your incentive to not be one? How many spoiled children who are given the world hit out at their carers? I don’t think it’s something women do or don’t do, anything we do or don’t do can be used to reason why we somehow create situations that make men angry. Existing is enough I think.

I get the earthworm analogy but perhaps it’s more that we are like a wild horse - something to be corralled and dominated and brought to heel. There’s twisted satisfaction to be had in making something or someone comply who doesn’t want to. Much more fun that the earthworm who doesn’t even know you’re trying to make them eat the compost!

"I do not believe men's whole reason for being angry with women is about whether they are the biological father of their children."

again it's at a society level not a personal level
it isn't about individual men saying oh I need to control my woman in case someone else knocks her up (although that happens plenty)
it's about a general view that of course women need to be controlled otherwise they might have a baby with the "wrong" man
i have read that this prob came about when humans started to have concepts around property inheritance etc

elephant in the room is religion >> all the mainstream ones have man as head / leader and women children as subordinate to him (even if not literal property)

the anger comes from the earthworm thing.
they have to hate us, because they know the way they are treating us is wrong, deep down

I do agree that it seems odd that so many men are violent towards their spouses / partners, esp when they are pregnant, and towards their children.

That shows that something has gone a bit wonky with the biological imperatives somehow?

Men are angry with women when women refuse to comply with the demands men make of them.
Men are physically stronger so they expect us to comply, and if we don't, they use anger and the threat of harm against us.
It's no more complicated than that.

I do think they control us because they can and it's as simple as that.

Women are perfectly good at abusing children / people in their care etc.

Humans on the whole >> are capable of awful things.

Cruelty / abuse etc are across the board. The one area where there seems to be a genuine difference between the sexes is sexual violence which really does seem to be a massively predominantly male problem.

Happy to have other views here - probably contraversial (the first part!).

xposts

Ok this might take me a while to respond to all the well put arguments :)

First
can imagine a man saying it, I can't really see it. And if it is true, why?

There are some schools of thought about emotional needs that I think may already have been touched on previously. Women tend to have stronger social connections. They also tend to be able to talk about their weaknesses and vulnerabilities with other women. Men don't have this to the same extent. Hence the higher levels of male suicides. Men struggle with being vulnerable and weak or perceived as such. Intercourse is a moment they can be. There are not many other outlets for them as there are women in that way. Women don't get the same needs met by sex as men do. So for men this is more important as a factor in a relationship with a woman.

Second

i do not believe men's whole reason for being angry with women is about whether they are the biological father of their children.

this was more geared towards the control element rather than anger.

Third
If it is innate doesn't that free men of responsibility for it? Sounds like a man's argument to me! I amnotsaying you are a man!

I'm not a man :) I'm not suggesting innate characteristics neutralise responsibility for actions. Again, it's the testosterone element here and the subconscious primal drivers I am talking about. The aggression had a use in previous times, it doesn't now. But The hormones remain the same as they are the drivers.

Will continue after a beverage

I think that really, whole swathes of men could be diagnosed with forms of MH problem and personality disorder so warped is their thinking and so underdeveloped their emotional resources and means of control.

Giant angry thinly disguised man-narc-toddlers many of them.

It just cycles on and on :(

'Reproduction and women have evolved and changed over the centuries' How, has it changed biologically? if it is innate then biology matters. The basics have not changed. You say '...but the drivers havent.'
I'd say the only things that have changed now are women's abilities to say no to sex, the opportunity for safe and successful birth control, and medical help with pregnancy, birth and fertility. The mechanics are the same.

It's evolved in respect of women being more in control than before, and really only since the 60s. The pill, abortion, sperm donors; surrogacy; these have changed men's roles in the process. Women had no choice before. They do now. That's a big issue. Easiest way to control a woman and shackle her to you for life? Get her pregnant. What I should have expanded on is that women can choose to reproduce without a man (via a donor)..pregnancy is less of a risk with the pill and morning after pill. These are all controlled by women. Men have realistically little say in these matters. It's a big change from how it was for men.

**eI don't understand the hate you describe. It's not something I know so cannot really imagine it.

Is there any female comparison you can come up with?**

Do you have a food that's a weakness? Or smoke? Or even known anyone with a dependency issue? Or ever have an overwhelming need for something or a person? Drug addicts need the drug but feel shame that they need it. So they have a love hate relationship with it, simplistically.

Responding to tell us point about violence in pregnancy, it's basically the same reasons

aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/domestic-and-family-violence-pregnancy-and-early-parenthood

Fascinating thread. I am thinking about my exDH. He appeared to want to be mothered & fussed over, to be agreed with, to be put on a pedestal. He needed to be the boss, to be 'manly and a provider'

baume you wrote : "Women don't get the same needs met by sex as men do. So for men this is more important as a factor in a relationship with a woman"

I agree, however it's not a description of my reality. He perceived himself as alpha but wouldn't have sex, was massively disinterested in my welfare, in letting me be me.

I wonder what affected him? I wasted so many years, putting myself through counseling, tying myself in knots over how to behave and support him.

I see now that my attempts to tee-hee him were disregarded, not to mention my attempts to disagree/put forward other options.

What a headfuck.

From the NYT article.

(“It isn’t actually about sex, it’s about power,” I read in The Guardian the other day. How naïve must you be not to understand that sex itself is about power every bit as much as it’s about pleasure?)

For women it's not though, ime. So even the author who on the face of it is trying to grapple with the problems with masculinity has totally failed to recognize that women possess subjectivity and that if a man wants to know how sex works for us maybe he should ask us, rather than projecting his own pathology onto us.

There's lots of description of men's nastiness and all, can't really disagree with this. However, for me it doesn't answer the origin of all this.

It's not really an effective way to behave, it doesn't work, IMHO. It doesn't ensure men the best of anything. I expect many men who behave like this end up alone, without their wives or ant contact with their kids. So I am not sure it is an innate or biological thing, and certainly not an evolutionary thing.

Baumederose

"Some argue that men view sex as an expression of love; a safe haven; one of the only places they can let their defences down. And that this is of great importance to men overall who wont want that jeopardized. Hence wanting to control and keep that in place; the fear of loss is high."

I wonder who said that? It sounds like something a man who would say to get laid!

How would it be possible for sex to be such a place in any circumstances? Think of all the situations where men may have sex? From a one-night stand, to a new partner, to their wife of 25 years, to a prostitute. Would all these situations be one of the only places men could let their defenses down?

“YOUR ABUSIVE PARTNER DOESN’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIS ANGER; HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH YOUR ANGER.

One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him. No matter how badly he treats you, he believes that your voice shouldn’t rise and your blood shouldn’t boil. The privilege of rage is reserved for him alone. When your anger does jump out of you—as will happen to any abused woman from time to time—he is likely to try to jam it back down your throat as quickly as he can. Then he uses your anger against you to prove what an irrational person you are. Abuse can make you feel straitjacketed. You may develop physical or emotional reactions to swallowing your anger, such as depression, nightmares, emotional numbing, or eating and sleeping problems, which your partner may use as an excuse to belittle you further or make you feel crazy.”
― Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men

“The abusive man’s high entitlement leads him to have unfair and unreasonable expectations, so that the relationship revolves around his demands. His attitude is: “You owe me.” For each ounce he gives, he wants a pound in return. He wants his partner to devote herself fully to catering to him, even if it means that her own needs—or her children’s—get neglected. You can pour all your energy into keeping your partner content, but if he has this mind-set, he’ll never be satisfied for long. And he will keep feeling that you are controlling him, because he doesn’t believe that you should set any limits on his conduct or insist that he meet his responsibilities.”
― Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men