should young girls go to prison for "false rape claims"

[traceyracer]

nypost.com/2018/06/05/former-college-student-who-claimed-rape-admits-it-was-all-lies/

Won't sending her to prison make it harder for the real victims to come forward?

And what if she's mentally ill and needs help rather than criminal-minded?

And I know 3 men who've raped someone and nothing has happened, and also scores of men who have been guilty of "lower level" weirdy shit.

Everyone has a different perspective.

In my town there was someone who said she had been raped and pretty much everyone immediately decided she was making it up on the basis that she'd been seen talking to a man earlier in the evening and hey maybe it was something to do with attention seeking.

I was a bit boggled to see it in action.

I know very personally about a young man who was accused of rape...a friend of my daughter told her that she had been raped by a pupil at their school...my daughter told me because she was concerned and wanted to support her friend, of course I contacted the NSPCC for advice they contacted the Police/School/SS regarding the situation, in the end it turned out they had consensual sex but she wanted to take it further, he didn't and so she said he raped her. The young man was questioned etc the young lady was given counselling, she admitted later she had lied. She was upset with my daughter for telling me and what had happened afterwards. She stopped talking to my daughter from then on and the young man ended up leaving the school. It happens, I never would have believed it.

It happens

Well yes, i dont think anyone has said it doesnt

I am always impressed by the vast majority of men who claim to know someone or be someone who was falsely accused of rape and yet do not know a single girl or woman who was raped.
25% of women have been raped.
2% false rape accusations. Lower % than most crimes.

When I was young men claimed that if you were not beaten unconscious you were not raped. It was perfectly legal for men to force a woman to submit if he was married to her.
There were two subjects anti feminists always raised in the seventies. Can I punch you now that we are legal and false rape allegations.
Not much has changed.

So, your point? I didn't say anyone did

Ok mistress

A lot of these "false claims" are going to be real claims that just failed to convince a jury/judge beyond all reasonable doubt

Absolutely not. For someone to be convicted of making a false claim it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that she did so. Reasonable doubt about the guilt of the alleged rapist does not get anywhere near proving beyond reasonable doubt that the allegation was false.

The authorities are hesitant about prosecuting people for making false rape claims so such prosecutions are rare. That does not, of course, guarantee that everyone convicted is actually guilty. You can never completely eliminate the possibility of miscarriages of justice. But for someone to be convicted the prosecution must convince a jury that, beyond reasonable doubt, their allegation was false.

prh

A poster linked upthread to a few cases they felt were false accusations

None of them appeared to have gone as far as a court of law, but they had been reported as false by the media

I think thats what the poster is referring to by A lot of these "false claims" are going to be real claims that just failed to convince a jury/judge beyond all reasonable doubt

Or at least thats what I woukd be referring to

For someone to be convicted of making a false claim it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that she did so.

The fact that women were found guilty of making false allegations that were later proven true puts the lie to your claim.

I really do want to know what is the actual fallout of being made the subject of a (definitely) false rape allegation. We are constantly told that false allegations should be punished harshly because they 'ruin lives' and are therefore morally equivalent to rape. But has anybody actually looked at this properly?

Are we talking about people actually losing their livelihood and contact with their family? Or a stressful few months while being investigated? Or having to have a humiliating conversation with their boss/wife? Or being told in a matey way by police that an allegation has been made but there's nothing to worry about because the police reckon the complainant is a 'crazy bitch'*? Or not even knowing about it because it's not taken forward? And in what proportions?

*true story, while we're doing anecdotes, although the allegation in this case wasn't false

What I don't get is this idea that that being investigated by the police is some jolly experience??...as I said if this was your son, husband, brothe,r anyone you care about would you feel the same if it was malicious??

If I didn't anything wrong but 'few stressful months' is cool wtf ?? why should anyone go through that?

I don't make excuses for shit behaviour man or woman

I think thats what the poster is referring to

I was responding, somewhat belatedly, to the second post in the thread. Given that the poster was responding to the OP, she seemed to think that a woman might end up in prison just because the prosecution failed to prove that her rapist was guilty beyond reasonable doubt. I would absolutely agree that a not guilty verdict does not necessarily mean that the victim was lying. It could be that the wrong man was accused, or that the evidence was insufficient to convince the jury that he was guilty. In the vast majority of cases the victim is a genuine rape victim.

The fact that women were found guilty of making false allegations that were later proven true puts the lie to your claim

No it does not. Proving that someone is guilty beyond reasonable doubt does not mean they are factually guilty. People are wrongly convicted from time to time. Unfortunately, it is sometimes possible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that someone is guilty of an offence when they are in fact innocent. It remains the case that, in any criminal prosecution, including a prosecution for making a false rape claim, the standard for conviction is that the jury must be convinced that the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. So the prosecution must show beyond reasonable doubt that the victim made the whole thing up.

I really do want to know what is the actual fallout of being made the subject of a (definitely) false rape allegation

At worst you can be convicted. If you continue to protest your innocence your release will be delayed. When you do eventually get released you will be on the sex offenders register for life unless you subsequently overturn your conviction. And, of course, even if you do manage to get your conviction overturned, there will always be people who continue to believe you were guilty.

If you are not convicted the effect varies. But, if you are charged, there is a good chance you will lose your job. The allegation may bring an end to your marriage or similar relationship and damage your relationship with other members of your family. The police may choose to reveal the allegation on any future DBS check, making it difficult for you to pursue some careers. And, of course, if people know that you have been accused, there will always be some who believe there is no smoke without fire.

A further piece of fallout I should add - if you are tried and acquitted following a false rape allegation you will be substantially out of pocket - of the order of £100,000. And if you are convicted and subsequently get your conviction overturned you are very unlikely to get any compensation.

I'm sure there is more I have missed.

By way of anecdote, I have actually lost count of the number of female friends (and a couple of male friends - I do know the number there because it's rarer) who've disclosed to me that they've been raped.

Patriarchy, there will be women in your circle of friends/acquaintances who have been raped. A lot of them. But I can explain why your experience will be skewed.

Women rape victims in particular are used to not being believed. (There's a subtly different, but equally toxic set of social pressures on men not to disclose). So they won't open up to friends until they know them well. And all this time, they'll have been quietly and subconsciously noting the attitudes the person they're talking to expresses in public.

Laughs (even awkwardly) at rape jokes? Not safe to talk to. Tells rape jokes? Probably not even safe to be alone with, much less talk to. Dismisses #metoo as attention seeking? Not safe to talk to. Makes comments like "I fear for my sons, growing up in a world awash with false rape accusations"? Not safe to talk to. Says things like "Women need to take responsibility for how they dress"? Not safe to talk to. On hearing of rape case in the public eye, immediately speculates as to how much alcohol the victim had drunk? Not safe to talk to.

Women will spend often up to several years of relatively close friendship, reading your reactions to things, before they feel safe to disclose their past.

As soon as you say "I know several men falsely accused of rape", a victim of rape is going to think "What are the odds on that? Maybe this man's friends have just been incredibly unlucky, or maybe, in fact more likely [not saying this is actually the case with you, but this is how they will assess the situation] he's just a rape apologist... No way would I let him drag my traumatic experiences through his I'm just a man capable of rationally weighing the evidence here and deciding your experiences aren't actually as you describe filter."

I repeat, I'm not saying this is what you are like. But a woman who's been raped, hearing how you talk about your friends who have been falsely accused, isn't going to take that risk. Therefore you don't know any women who've been raped - because the ones who have won't take the risk on telling you.

if you are charged, there is a good chance you will lose your job. The allegation may bring an end to your marriage or similar relationship and damage your relationship with other members of your family

Yes I too can speculate about possible consequences. I'm asking whether anyone has ever collected any actual data wrt to these kinds of speculations.

And I'm not suggesting that being the subject of a police investigation is fun. I'm suggesting that we need to know more about how many people actually undergo this sort of thing, what it typically involves and what its actual impacts are before claiming that it constitutes a human rights violation severe enough to justify the further victimisation of rape survivors. And genuine rape survivors will be victimised by punitive responses to perceived false allegations in a context where women are rarely believed even when telling the truth.

I was responding, somewhat belatedly, to the second post in the thread

Oh honestly sorry

I always think its about the previous few posts which is obviously very silly of me, especially as im usually on the first page of most threads

Yes I too can speculate about possible consequences. I'm asking whether anyone has ever collected any actual data wrt to these kinds of speculations

As far as I am aware no-one has collected any data on this. All we have is anecdotal evidence from lawyers involved in the criminal justice system plus some evidence from those who have been accused.

Oh my fuckery
Just read this

"I do take your point that I may know women who have been raped who are unwilling to tell me about it. My issue here however is that I'd like to know how exactly they are defining rape."

Wow.

Will read rest of post now.
Guessing it means that women "cry rape" because a man looked at her funny on the tube / regrets sex / got drunk and had consensual sex and accuses of rape in the morning / and let's have a read shall we.

You need to watch what you're saying here patriarchy. The suggestion that women who have been raped may be "defiining it" in ways other than it's meant ie non consensual penetration is a totally shitty one.

Women make "honest mistakes" sometimes when they accuse men of rape.
Women often "feel raped" but to the man they were enthusiastically consenting so how could he have known.
Is there a bingo card for this?
Your posts are getting on my tits.
Enormous numbers of women and girls (and also lots of men and boys) are raped as in RAPED RAPED (to borrow whoopie goldberg's words) every single year and you are putting this drivel down on here?

You are a rape apologist. Come on, reread what you just wrote. It's 100% clear that any women or girl who you hear about who has been raped your starting point is "let's look at this from the man's perspective shall we? and also remember that women and girls are malicious, vindictive liars".

This is the feminism women's rights board. You are unlikely to convince us that lots of rape is because women are stupid and change their minds. There is a reason for that.

Do you think a woman or girl - even a close relative - would disclose an assault to you? Would they fuck. Think about that.

Nothingontelly

Probably should have read my whole post before you responded...