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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

should young girls go to prison for "false rape claims"

311 replies

traceyracer · 26/08/2018 11:51

nypost.com/2018/06/05/former-college-student-who-claimed-rape-admits-it-was-all-lies/

Won't sending her to prison make it harder for the real victims to come forward?

And what if she's mentally ill and needs help rather than criminal-minded?

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 29/08/2018 17:48

Thanks for the link.

The first thing to say is that the "penetration by accident" stuff is something the prosecution said in their opening remarks and was their interpretation of the defendant's second interview with the police. It is, of course, in the prosecution's interests to make the defendant's explanations to the police sound as ridiculous as possible. If you don't think the defendant is guilty after the prosecution's opening speech they aren't doing their job properly.

The trial appears to have lasted a week. The only reports I can find cover the prosecution's opening remarks and the verdict. The prosecution's evidence and the defence case don't appear to have been reported, beyond a brief mention that the defence accused the victim of lying. Given the lack of coverage, we don't even know if the prosecution's version of the defendant's statement was accurate.

Juries do sometimes arrive at surprising verdicts. I cannot rule out the possibility that this was the defence and the jury bought it but I find that difficult to believe.

The defendant was a very wealthy individual and I would not be surprised if that was a factor in his acquittal

I note the petition suggesting the judge was bribed. The basis for this seems to be that 20 minutes of the defence case was heard in private and therefore we don't know what was said, and that the judge decided the defendant's story was true. The petition is wrong on both counts. When evidence is given in private there is a named member of the press present who can report on proceedings. We don't know what was said in the defence case because the press chose not to report it, not because the press were excluded. And the judge does not decide whether or not the defendant's story is true. That is a matter for the jury. The judge's role is to ensure the correct process is followed and guide the jury on the relevant law.

thebewilderness · 29/08/2018 19:40

I think it important to recognize that most young girls who are convicted of false rape allegations are guilty pleas and not jury verdicts.
There is a clearly documented record of intimidation of young girls by the police and sometimes by the perp when the victim goes to the police after being raped.
They are offered a choice between continued harassment ending in public humiliation at trial or a plea bargain where the victim recants and is promised a fine if they confess to making a false allegation. Judges like to put young girls in jail to teach them a lesson so they rarely respect the deal the prosecutors make.

prh47bridge · 29/08/2018 20:00

I think it important to recognize that most young girls who are convicted of false rape allegations are guilty pleas and not jury verdicts

I presume from your post that you are not in the UK. We don't usually refer to a "perp" in the UK. We also don't have plea bargains. The nearest we get in the UK is when the prosecution agrees to drop a more serious charge if the accused pleads guilty to a lesser charge. A defendant is never offered the choice you describe.

If you are in the UK, do you have any data to support your allegation? The only figures I can find show how many people are charged with making false rape allegations but don't even tell us what proportion are convicted, let alone whether they plead guilty or are found guilty by a jury.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/08/2018 21:08

It's extremely common in the U.K. for girls and women to be bullied into recanting by police / perpetrator / perpetrator's family / own family / wider social circle

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 29/08/2018 21:31

Sometimes i dont think its always bullying from family and friends

Especially if they are worried about how other people and the authorities are going to treat their daughter for example

Or they have had experience of a rape trial themselves

But the end result would still be the victim recanting

WHICH TO SOME FUCKWITS MEANS THAT SHE WAS LYING WHEN SHE FUCKING WASN'T

Just thought id 'yell' that last bit

Totallymyownperson · 29/08/2018 21:33

I know I am extremely late to this thread but going back to the original title of the thread should young girls go to prison for false rape claims, if young girls literally means under 18 and not some way of describing grown women as so many people still describe women in this way then answer is NO not always after all not all convicted rapists who are under 18 go to prison. Look at this story
www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/rapist-walked-free-suffer-sentence-501933

FermatsTheorem · 29/08/2018 21:37

Yup, Rufus. My friend who was raped on the way back from a maths lecture - I sat through a lot of her interviews with the police because she wanted someone there for support. They were absolutely fucking shite, and their whole MO was to bully her as badly as possible to see if she was likely to cope with the stress of a court case. They then bullied her into withdrawing the complaint. (Which was then presumably "no-crimed").

I then spent several months sleeping on her floor in the halls of residence so she'd have someone there when she woke up screaming in the night. Then she became suicidal and had to go home to her parents for support.

Which is one reason why I get so incredibly fucking angry with people who think not guilty verdicts/complaints withdrawn/CPS didn't proceed mean that the victim lied. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the victim is telling the truth and the system has let her down totally and utterly.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/08/2018 21:40

YY Rufus

And the situation where she recants in order to save her friends and family (who are also his friends and family) from having to pick a side.

Doesn't have to be bullying.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 29/08/2018 21:43

I agree completely fermats

Thats what incensed me about the young man mentioned in an earlier post

The newspaper article said quite clearly that she withdrew the accusation, and it then goes on to say that its a false accusation when its not the same thing at all

Trouble is a lot of people read those articles and believe them...and thats another tick in the women lie box...the comments section is full of fuckwits calling for the woman's immediate arrest and imprisonment

If those fuckwits had a brain they would be dangerous...as it is they are just very very stupid

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 29/08/2018 21:45

Agreed tallulah

Very sad

Totallymyownperson · 29/08/2018 21:51

And here’s another delightful example of an adult male not going to prison for rape. Ok it’s in America but so was the other Yovino story. So I guess the answer to the question is a big fat no again

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/doctor-rape-patient-shafeeq-sheikh-texas-sedated-jail-prison-sentence-a8499981.html%3famp

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 29/08/2018 21:53

How the fuck did he get away with that totally

WrongOnTheInternet · 29/08/2018 21:57

I don't think many women who have either tried to report a sexual assault to the police or weighed up the options and decided not to bother as it is so weighted against women could possibly agree with this suggestion.

Make rape an actual punishable offence, in fact. Never assume in law that a woman having sex once in their lives has consented to sex from anyone else who fancies it ever. Remove that attitude from Britain's disgustingly misogynistic culture along with it's male's feelings of entitlement to women's attention. Make the example of Nottingham standard throughout the UK. Make the UK a safe and law-abiding environment where women can walk freely without fear.

Then we'll talk.

WrongOnTheInternet · 29/08/2018 21:58

its' males'.

WrongOnTheInternet · 29/08/2018 21:58

or even it's males'! Bedtime!

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 29/08/2018 22:07

Make rape an actual punishable offence, in fact

Yes this.

And can we stop with the attitude that it's so unacceptable to inflict even mild embarrassment on an innocent male that it's preferable to allow rapists to run amok committing serious crimes against equally innocent women and children.

Totallymyownperson · 29/08/2018 22:08

The only answer to that I have rufus is rape culture really exists. It was the jury made up of people from a normal background made this recommendation not the judge.

I think the number of women who are wrongly labelled as liars is probably higher than we will ever know.

Women being falsely accused is not widely reported unlike the perception of men being falsely accused.

In this it was proven that the woman was falsely accused but not many media outlets reported it but when a man wins an acquittal even though the woman has not proven to lie beyond reasonable doubt it’s reported as though it has been proven.
www.theguardian.com/society/2015/may/22/victim-falsely-accused-of-lying-by-uk-hampshire-police-wins-payout

prh47bridge · 29/08/2018 22:19

Thank you for the link thebewilderness. However, the first sentence in the abstract of this American paper undermines the whole paper by stating that most criminal cases in the UK are resolved by a plea bargain. That is simply wrong. For a start we don't do plea bargains in the American sense. In my experience, most lawyers in the criminal justice system want to keep it that way as they believe that plea bargains lead to people accepting convictions when they have not committed any offence. And, if it were true that most criminal cases are resolved by a plea bargain, the proportion of guilty pleas would be much higher than it is.

As per my earlier post, the only form of plea bargain we have in the UK is where a defendant agrees to plead guilty to a lesser charge in return for which the prosecution drops a more serious charge. This usually happens either because the accused is testifying against a co-conspirator or the prosecution believes it will have difficulty proving the more serious charge. Your allegation that judges do not respect the deal made by the prosecutor is well wide of the mark. Unlike the US, the prosecution cannot negotiate the sentence. The judge cannot stop the prosecution dropping the more serious charge. All the judge can do is sentence the accused in line with the sentencing guidelines. And your comment that judges like to send young girls to jail is also wide of the mark. The evidence strongly suggests that young men are much more likely to be jailed than young women.

thebewilderness · 29/08/2018 22:25

That was great!

prh47bridge · 29/08/2018 22:33

I am very familiar with the Secret Barrister's book. Whilst he highlights a lot of things that are wrong with our criminal justice system, his book does not support what you are saying.

sawdustformypony · 29/08/2018 22:48

Yet, reputable scholarship has established that over 90 percent of all cases in the magistrates courts and approximately two-third of all cases in the higher Crown Court were resolved through a guilty plea or a finding of guilty upon failure of the defendant to appear in court.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were correct - but it doesn't indicate plea bargaining - more likely the defendants have overwhelming evidence against them and they are keen to enter an early guilty plea in order to obtain a full 1/3 reduction in sentence. Or is that what the American report means by 'plea bargaining' ?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 29/08/2018 22:49

he evidence strongly suggests that young men are much more likely to be jailed than young women

That wouldnt be anything to do with them committing more crimes would it

You can be very literal sometimes...I'm guessing thats a massive bonus in your job

sawdustformypony · 29/08/2018 22:55

Deliberately obtuse as usual Rufus.

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