Protecting children (sons) from the influence of porn

[ConcernedMim]

I have posted this in Feminism Chat because I want to protect my sons and I want to protect girls they might date as they get older. They are currently pre-school / primary school age.

So, I have never watched / seen much porn. I’m a woman in my 40s. Many years ago I saw the odd video at a friend’s house and it seemed to me to be bored women being shagged over the kitchen counter by the pizza delivery guy they’d let into the house 2 mins earlier. Not my cup of tea but didn’t seem massively harmful to viewers (although I know the women involved may not have had many choices).

But I have read that porn has changed - it’s more violent and more misogynistic. Or maybe it always was but I never saw it. It’s also easier to access due to the internet. And the damage that can do to girls, and to boys.

My children are young but I assume at some point their friends will introduce them to porn or they’ll find it themselves. How do I help them see that it’s not a realistic view of sex? I can’t imagine they’ll listen to their mum. Obviously I’ll try to talk about consent, and I already do (‘stop tickling your brother, he’s not enjoying it anymore’) but will that be enough? I try to encourage friendships with girls but the older one isn’t really interested, he just wants to be friends with boys.

Their dad and I are married and I don’t think he uses porn. If that’s relevant.

Anyone got any advice for me? Thank you.

@alldaybreakfast you say that and it’s probably true but I can honestly say I didn’t really see any porn until after I’d lost my virginity (all though that wasn’t a particularly healthy experience either)

@WhatTheWatersShowedMe

"pornography is strongly correlated with factors widely recognized as contributors to sexual violence including defining masculinity as embodied through violence, hostile attitudes towards women, and gender inequality.”

Source: m.medicalxpress.com/news/2015-01-pornography-sexual-behavior.html

The porn that is widespread on sites like pornhub is violent, racist, misogynistic and cruel. I do not want my son to grow up thinking that is how sex is amongst consenting adults"

Why did you omit the sentence from your source stating that social science research cannot prove causation?

I'd add though that most lads (IMO) don't necessarily assume that porn is reflective of reality - I mean, the nine-inch penises are almost a parody, as exaggerated as a Jason Statham/Jet Li fight scene seems when compared to a schoolyard scrap.

Most boys start with a crush, followed by an awkward kiss at some point, followed by inexperienced fumbling...

I really don't think most 16yo lads are.foing straight in for the handcuffs and choking etc lol.

bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996

From the article above:

Results Anal heterosex often appeared to be painful, risky and coercive, particularly for women. Interviewees frequently cited pornography as the ‘explanation’ for anal sex, yet their accounts revealed a complex context with availability of pornography being only one element. Other key elements included competition between men; the claim that ‘people must like it if they do it’ (made alongside the seemingly contradictory expectation that it will be painful for women); and, crucially, normalisation of coercion and ‘accidental’ penetration. It seemed that men were expected to persuade or coerce reluctant partners.

Conclusions Young people's narratives normalised coercive, painful and unsafe anal heterosex. This study suggests an urgent need for harm reduction efforts targeting anal sex to help encourage discussion about mutuality and consent, reduce risky and painful techniques and challenge views that normalise coercion.

It doesn’t have to be all teenage boys (NAMALT yada yada yada) for it to be a problem for some young women.

An interesting counter-argument against the 'pervasive evil' of pornography (as characterised on this forum), would be that there is significant evidence that access to pornography actually decreases instances of sexual violence and rape.

At the macro level this phenomenon is easy to see, (compare the rates of sexual violence in repressive, cuturally conservative places like Saudi Arabia or India against Europe/USA) however it also holds up when you compare culturally similar countries that have different attitudes towards porn/sex.

But of course this could be due to a number of other factors, so studies have been conducted in the USA where they compared the different states and the dates that they adopted the internet in a way that would lend itself to streaming video. (All states adopted internet at different times/dates)

They found extremely strong correlation between the widespread adoption of hi speed internet and a significant reduction in sexual violence and rape, the strongest correlation was amongst the youngest groups studied ( males aged 18-25) who are coincidentally the most likely group to be regular porn users.

The proposed explanation being that watching porn, even potentially violent porn, provides a critical 'safety valve' for young men that has the potential to prevent them from acting out some of their fantasies in real life.

If you think that having an outlet for sexual energy and feelings isn't important, look at what happens when you don't allow it (catholic priests anyone?)

Of course some people like to argue that watching porn makes men more sexually violent, however there is no real evidence to support this and its actually reminiscent of the desire to ban 'video nasties' in the late 90s (in the wake of the James Bulger killing) in the mistaken belief that watching violent films or playing violent computer games made children more violent.

So maybe the whole 'porn is bad' narrative isn't entirely true.

I do agree that its worth talking to your kids and explaining that porn differs significantly from what normal sex is like. I really liked the comparison of WWE to regular fighting, I think I will use that myself when my kids are old enough to receive the 'porn' chat.

Wtf is with all the porn apologists in this thread? You know it's in the feminism section right? Where we call out misogynistic exploitation and violence against women as the abhorrent societal cancer that porn is.
I hate porn. Vile vile stuff. This isn't just curiosity anymore, this is hardcore brainwashing - motor neuron rewiring.

Porn is the practice, rape is the reality.

On one of the threads linked at the behinijnb (or on the original thread which I can't find but was I think about 'all the boys do strangulation' at a poster's daughter's school) there was a blog that analysed the porn on porn hub.

Heterosexual porn was predominantly or all violent/ / forced/ rape, no kissing and mostly anal. Gay porn was more loving, included kissing and obviously included anal but not in the same violent and forced way.

Post by VaguelyAware from thread linked up post on 19th Feb.

"Another link below - petition against the Ann Summers / Pornhub collaboration.

https://www.change.org/p/ann-summers-ann-summers-dump-pornhub

The titles of the videos on Pornhub alone speak for themselves:

"Unwanted Painful Anal" (3.9 million views)

"Noose around her Neck, Real Hanging" (118,000 views)

"No Daddy Stop. I’m not Mummy" (2.5 million views)

"Human Toilet Girl gets a Stomach full of Fresh Urine" (71,000 views)

“Anal Tears” (1.5 million views)

“Extreme Brutal Gagging” (472,000 views)

“How to Sexually Harass Your Secretary Properly” (10.6 million views)

When Ann Summers suggests “Ways to Spice up the Night”, "Bring the Glam" or “Romance is What You Make it” .. is this what they mean?"

captain - are you not worried about creating forbidden fruit? I ask not as a criticism but because I've also thought about it - but I keep thinking about my friends as teenagers, and my experience is that those who weren't allowed to do things like go to parties, drink, etc. still did them but in a much less safe way because they were sneaking around and couldn't talk to their parents about problems that did arise. I had quite permissive parents and that worked well for me and I would ideally like a similar atmosphere in my home - but then I worry that the pressures that will be on my child will be much greater than in my own teens, and so maybe that model isn't adequate to the challenges of the internet and social media.

I see this loads on Mn with regards to drink and I completely disagree. Drugs, alcohol, porn are all addictive substances. The harm comes simply from how much you consume. You might see some porn and be intrigued but whatever you want, you won't get to watch 8 hours of it. Same with alcohol. Nothing will convince me that weaning a preteen on to alcopops i somehow going to make them not as interested in drink later on.

patrachypersonified

Yes, instead of calling those things crimes we have created a grey area where we now call them "kinky sex". So no rape has been committed in our far superior western world. A woman just got strangled and doesn't think she can go to the police because she consented to sex. From my experience and friends, I believe that men just do what the fuck they want now and call it sex-positive.

Do you worry about forbidden fruit when you teach children not to hit or stab people with knives or beat people to death with baseball bats?

When I look at porn sites, I don't see extreme or violent clips...maybe these are being sought out by some men/boys.

I don't have a son but I explained to my daughter that porn doesn't reflect the norm in sexual relationships. She does freely talk to me, so I'm fortunate in that respect as we can discuss anything.

Captain good luck with no smartphones until post 16. We felt like this. My 12 year old has a smart phone. It is how this generation interact, your kids will HATE you. it's just not possible.

When I look at porn sites, I don't see extreme or violent clips...maybe these are being sought out by some men/boys.

They're definitely out there. However, when I watched it in my early twenties I was only turned on by passionate scenes with kissing/tenderness etc and there's lots of that too.

I also remember reading a thread on here a few months back (damned if I can remember which one) where quite a few female posters stated that they watched porn. This is also my experience and somewhat obfuscated the matter as it's not just men 'disrespecting' women.

Regarding the other point, I can see how it could be a release for some but become an unhealthy obsession for others (like that guy who was watching strangulation snuff videos before he murdered a woman).

Isn't porn like 50% of all internet traffic or is that just an urban myth?

Do you worry about forbidden fruit when you teach children not to hit or stab people with knives or beat people to death with baseball bats?

Yeah, that's the same...

I wasn't suggesting that allowing some access means kids then won't want alcohol/social media/access to sexual content. I'm saying that I believe that you don't change their behaviour either way but if you entirely forbid these things you risk creating a dangerous situation where if they do them and end up in trouble they feel they can't come to you about it.

Ugh, why do people work so hard to defend porn? Feminism board, remember?
We know the statistics, it's overwhelmingly men watching and it's overwhelmingly becoming more and more violent.

No, I don't worry about forbidden fruit. I'm happy to do what I can to protect their developing brains from this kind of damage.

Do you teach them not to rape torture and abuse women? Or do you pretend boys wanking to women being raped is perfectly acceptable entertainment?

Recent thread from the Relationships board.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3335081-Boobs-pubes-and-porn

One Mner got sent a screen shot of a t shirt that read "my beard is the only hair that should be between your legs"

Recent article by Jessica Eaton, Doctoral Researcher in Forensic Psychology about the impact of language about sex / porn especially on young people worth reading:

"When I started to search the terms I had heard and read, I easily found memes, articles, discussions and blogs using this language about women in a completely normalised way. Men saying to their friends ‘The girl next door, I would ruin that!’ or ‘She’s gonna get it hard. Beat that pussy up!’ "
She goes on to discuss the work needed with young people.
victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/beat-the-pussy-up-the-way-we-talk-about-sex-with-women/
thread discussing this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3253264-Very-good-article-by-Jessica-Eaton-about-language-used-to-describe-sex

Also Tom Farr:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3292203-The-Porn-Industry-Offers-Us-a-Glimpse-Into-The-Future-and-the-Future-Looks-Very-Bleak-Indeed

If I had a son, I'd probably go on the basis that he is going to watch porn, and I would talk to him about it. I might even go on sites with him and talk about some of the images and videos...that may be enough to do the job...find some videos where the woman looks like she's having an incredible orgasm and explain why it is physically impossible for her to be really enjoying it. Analyse the hell out of them and kill the moment.

While I agree that trying to bring up boys so that they never even see or use porn is probably an impossible dream, I think we have to at least do all we can to raise boys who are repulsed by the violence and misogyny in the list posted by Ekphrasis. At the very least we need them to be saying, "How vile, I want something where the girl is having a good time too."

At the very fucking least.

Just placemarking, as I know this is coming up for us soon. We have had to explain the terms porn, pornography, rape, exploitation, and prostitution to our eldest this last year, it won't be long before we need to approach them with the youngest.
They've both known how babies are made for a very long time, and what sex is, in an abstract way.

This is a really useful thread. Thank you to all who have posted. DS is at primary school but I feel like this is something that we should be preparing for sooner rather than later.

My children will hate me. I am sure they will. But they will be loved, they will still be able to access social media from a desktop pc. They will still be allowed boyfriends/girlfriends and to go to parties and hang out with friends.

It’s just I don’t want them stuck in their bedroom sending pictures of their anus to ransoms from their smart phone, or accessing filth at 3 am in the morning some of it of questionably legal. Being bullied or joining in bullying vulnerable classmates, or being obsessed with selfies. I HAVE seen this already with my step son. He had one from age 9 and his parents had all the internet safety set ups, randomly checked his phone etc.

I don’t let them have gaming devices either. And we’ve just spent the summer holidays without the TV being on. Because I want my children growing up thinking if you’re bored you read, that you get some exercise and daylight every day.

I don’t want to be my children’s friends I want to be their parent. I believe porn, social media and smart phones affect the mental health of our children.