Misgendering.

[FloralBunting]

I've been musing about this for some time, given that it's billed as almost the very worst thing you can do to some people.

I've been pondering why that is. Obviously there's surface level stuff about it not affirming or validating an identity.

But the offensive nature of it, as billed, is a really interesting idea that I am trying to get the the nub of.

It's been used as a comedy trope forever - Miranda being the most recent example that springs to mind. So I suppose there is an undercurrent of mockery, culturally speaking.

But why should being called by the pronouns of the opposite sex being a shameful or embarrassing thing? What are the psychologies in play here?

Women not being stereotypically feminine enough? Men not being manly? That's part and parcel of the comedy trope, and absolutely part of the gender binary that restricts everything.

What is nonsensical about the TRA attempted enforcement of pronoun usage is it's entirely the other way. The offence in the older version of getting someone's sex wrong was because you assumed their sex based on whether or not they confirmed to external stereotypes. If they didn't look sufficiently manly, they were female, which was a great insult for a man (which is probably the heart of why I find it distasteful - being assumed to be 'lesser' if thought of as female.)

But the newspeak offense of misgendering is not about mistaking someone for a sex they do not belong to. It's about correctly assessing their sex and then being shamed for noticing it.

'Tis probably too late to get any more clarity in my thinking here, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. ( Though I don't doubt at this late hour, I'll probably get some stirrers too).

Bespin there is an inconsistency in your arguments, you claim misgendering is worse for someone transgender compared to a mere female because it happens so much more and yet later you claim people go along with your preferred gender & name 99% of the time. And that most people go along with it you use as an argument for why the rest should.

Can't both be true

Doyenne

because for some trans people the people around them can be hostile towards them, and they suffer a lot of abuse and that if you get that then it can become constent and it can happen everyday. there is a difference I. don't think that its literally violance for most of us and I except someone can make a mistake. but as I said I. have meet people who will try to use this as a way to exert power and it is this use of misgendering that can become clumlative and can cause harm to someone along with other factors. as always intent in these things is importent.

Bespin for some women the TRAs around them can be hostile towards them and they suffer a lot of abuse which can be constant and can happen everyday.

I have met people who will try to use pronouns/misgendering as a way to exert power. The effects of this can become cumulative and can cause harm.

As always intent is important but also the consequences.

I was just looking at the site 'Beyond the Binary'

"Beyond the Binary uses the term ‘non-binary’ as an umbrella to catch and include a range of gender and sex identities that do not completely fit only man/woman, masculine/feminine, or male/female. We realise that language varies from person to person and space to space, and some people may not feel included by the term. There are no guidelines on what ‘non-binary’ is or is not, and we do not enforce one image or experience of being non-binary. We recognise it’s difficult to find a wording that encapsulates everyone’s experience of what non-binary is or means."

I have been wondering, is the new binary to be Queer or not Queer?

Recently, a male acquaintance was doing sword training (or running around and hitting people with sticks). He said to the people on his team 'go after that guy', indicating another person in the group.

This person immediately started complaining that he/she/zie/they/wombat had been misgendered, despite there being no indication that the person identified as anything other than male. Their 'friends' (not sure as do not want to misacquaintance them) then kept making rude comments and centering their attacks on the male acquaintance.

Beyond the Binary: A magazine for UK Non-Binary People.
beyondthebinary.co.uk/mission-statement/

Jess Bradley's article:
beyondthebinary.co.uk/genderfeelings-transphobic/

for some women the TRAs around them can be hostile towards them and they suffer a lot of abuse which can be constant and can happen everyday.

Also, "for some people the TRAs... etc"

I. don't think that its literally violance for most of us

It's really not "literally violence" for anyone, Bespin.

This person immediately started complaining that he/she/zie/they/wombat had been misgendered, despite there being no indication that the person identified as anything other than male.

Classic example of someone weaponising this as a power trip.

Sorry I don't want to walk on eggshells around abusive narcissistic people. Been there, done that.

I am female and identify as such. I have been mistaken for male when younger when I had short hair / wearing jeans and a rain jacket and later wearing a work uniform comprising baseball gap and trousers / promotional teeshirt. I remember the incidents which suggests they had an impact on me and yes I was a bit embarrassed that they thought I looked like a ‘boy’ but i wasn’t angry at the people who did it, it was just a mistake.

Sorry I don't want to walk on eggshells around abusive narcissistic people. Been there, done that.

This, with bells on.

I also found it hugely helpful when someone pointed out this "it's not so hard to find out and learn my pronouns" stuff is males demanding emotional labour from women, again.

A tweet from Lily about how 'hot' it is when women do as men bid.

Rebecca Reilly Cooper's 2016 article, 'Gender is not a spectrum
'The idea that ‘gender is a spectrum’ is supposed to set us free. But it is both illogical and politically troubling'
(extract)
"If you identify as pangender, is the claim that you represent every possible point on the spectrum? All at the same time? How might that be possible, given that the extremes necessarily represent incompatible opposites of one another? Pure femininity is passivity, weakness and submission, while pure masculinity is aggression, strength and dominance. It is simply impossible to be all of these things at the same time. If you disagree with these definitions of masculinity and femininity, and do not accept that masculinity should be defined in terms of dominance while femininity should be described in terms of submission, you are welcome to propose other definitions. But whatever you come up with, they are going to represent opposites of one another.

A handful of individuals are apparently permitted to opt out of the spectrum altogether by declaring themselves ‘agender’, saying that they feel neither masculine nor feminine, and don’t have any internal experience of gender. We are not given any explanation as to why some people are able to refuse to define their personality in gendered terms while others are not, but one thing that is clear about the self-designation as ‘agender’: we cannot all do it, for the same reasons we cannot all call ourselves non-binary. If we were all to deny that we have an innate, essential gender identity, then the label ‘agender’ would become redundant, as lacking in gender would be a universal trait. Agender can be defined only against gender. Those who define themselves and their identity by their lack of gender must therefore be committed to the view that most people do have an innate, essential gender but that, for some reason, they do not.

Once we assert that the problem with gender is that we currently recognise only two of them, the obvious question to ask is: how many genders would we have to recognise in order not to be oppressive? Just how many possible gender identities are there?

The only consistent answer to this is: 7 billion, give or take. There are as many possible gender identities as there are humans on the planet. According to Nonbinary.org, one of the main internet reference sites for information about non-binary genders, your gender can be frost or the Sun or music or the sea or Jupiter or pure darkness. Your gender can be pizza." (continues)

(concludes)
"You do not need to have a deep, internal, essential experience of gender to be free to dress how you like, behave how you like, work how you like, love who you like. You do not need to show that your personality is feminine for it to be acceptable for you to enjoy cosmetics, cookery and crafting. You do not need to be genderqueer to queer gender. The solution to an oppressive system that puts people into pink and blue boxes is not to create more and more boxes that are any colour but blue or pink. The solution is to tear down the boxes altogether."
aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

"You do not need to be genderqueer to queer gender."

I want this on a t shirt.

Feminist Current article:

'Penises don’t kill people, people with penises do
Everyone — including trans activists and allies — should demonstrate zero tolerance for perpetrators of violence and sexual misconduct, regardless of how they identify.'
AUGUST 16, 2018 by HOLLY LAWFORD-SMITH & EMILY VICENDESE

Discusses the current allegations against Jess Bradley which are being investigated by NUS and a response by CursedE

concludes:
"We are interested in this information if it does indeed exist, but until we are presented with evidence, we think there is sufficient reason to keep certain spaces off limits to males. The burden of proof is on those who would like to make exceptions for some males, and not on us. Cases like Bradley’s are striking not because they represent transwomen, but because they show misconduct that is characteristically male, but not characteristic of females.

In the wake of #MeToo, writers like “Cursed E” should consider cases like Bradley’s as an opportunity to take a stand against male violence and sexual misconduct. Instead of going into damage control and using minimization tactics for political reasons, everyone — including trans activists and allies — should demonstrate zero tolerance for perpetrators of violence and sexual misconduct, regardless of how they identify or their political affiliation. The short term imperatives of securing the privacy, rights, and safety of those who identify as transgender — without jeopardizing the privacy, rights, and safety of females — should be something we can all agree on. And in the long run, males especially should work toward making male violence and sexual misconduct a thing of past, if they wish to obviate the need for sex-segregated spaces."

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/08/16/penises-dont-kill-people-people-penises/

Did Lily really go on a date with a girl (18), which I presume is more accurate?Has the datee been misminored?

I have been in a state of amazement about the whole "misgendering is actual violence" thing because of the subtext that it's a problem for trans people.

I've been misgendered my whole life. Goddamn boats, machines!, are respectfully referred to as female, but actual females just disappear.

Just yesterday I was walking down a street and a friendly person said, "Hi guys." Totally unthinkable to say, "Hi gals" since one (one!) of us was male.

The Lascaux cave artists were always written about as "he" though nobody had any idea what they were. Turns out based on hand prints, they were probably "she." The Renaissance artists were all "he." The NASA scientists were all "he." Somebody has to go to a lot of effort to produce a "Hidden Figures" film before it dawns on anyone that women were involved.

It goes on and on and on. That has a huge cost in making it an uphill climb to believe in yourself. Huge. And women have been dealing with it for millenia and soldiering on.

So my first reaction to any mtf trans is they should take on board how misgendering feels (although it's done for a different reason in that case). Welcome to the female experience. You say you feel like women. Well, here you go.

(Just to make clear which side of all this I'm on: we should do away with these stupid gender boxes, not metastasize them. We should use indefinite pronouns, eg singular "they," when the sex of the people is not the point.)

I don't agree that accidental misgendering is any sort of crime because everyone's fallible but, regardless of how GC you are, isn't it fair for anyone to have their request for how they want to be addressed honored?

Flipping it around, no matter how much a guy wants to address females in his workplace as 'darling' because of his cultural background, it wouldn't be fair to take this into account beyond an initial unintentional incident when respecting the wishes of the person being addressed.

No matter how much he wanted to be addressed as 'darling" it would be inappropriate to demand that women obey.

@thebewilderness I meant a man wanting to address female colleagues as 'darling', not one who wishes to be addressed as such.

The issue here is people demanding they be addressed as the opposite sex. So the analogy would be him wanting to be addressed as darling and complaining they are phobic if they refuse to obey him and want to call him Mr soandso.

If a man wants to be addressed as 'darling' because that genuinely makes them feel comfortable, I don't see the problem. I work in an office with a number of people from areas where addressing females as 'darling', 'dear', 'love', ect. is common. When directed at me, it makes me feel very undervalued and I was extremely relieved when briefly informing them of this made them change their behavior.

Unlike many trans-associated issues, I really don't see how this is anything besides basic reciprocity.

isn't it fair for anyone to have their request for how they want to be addressed honored?

Not necessarily, no. I gave an example below which Bespin said wasn't the same but failed to demonstrate how it wasn't conceptually the same. Would you call someone "my Lord" or "your Majesty" if that's what they identified as?

Would you really trip yourself up walking on eggshells around some made up nonsense like fae/faer?

@Ereshkigal, the difference is that those are titles of honour. Regarding eggshells, I believe context is important, if it's an honest mistake then there's no reason for the person being misgendered to feel aggrieved beyond mild annoyance at having to repeat themselves (certainly I don't think it qualifies as any sort of social crime) but when maliciously pursued it strikes me as being abusive.

Ultimately, it's a social convention and I'm afraid that if we go back to it being socially acceptable for people to address others as they see fit, even when objections are raised, it's going to be much worse for women everywhere (I do remember with horror being called 'bird' repeatedly many years ago and having my concerns laughed off).