Can you be a feminist and pro trans?

[thatdamnwoman]

Someone I have long thought of as a friend — a lesbian, someone who says she defines herself as a feminist — is also ardently pro-trans and actually says she believes TWAW. We are, trying, ever so politely, to edge our way around this: we go back years and have been part of each other's support system.

We have tried talking about it a little more today and she has again reiterated that she is a feminist. For me it's very difficult to describe yourself as a feminist and then say that XY people with penises are women.

Ask her how she defines 'woman.'

How does a male bodied person know they are female?

Maybe ask for her comments on access to women's refuges and how that's been hijacked by people with penises? Unfortunately the losers in the transactivists brave new world are always going to be the most vulnerable and disenfranchised women.

Yes, I think it is possible. I know someone who has done an absolutely phenomenal amount regarding women's abortion rights in Ireland. She has done far more for women than anyone else I know and been instrumental in changing women's lives for the better. She is definitely a feminist and describes herself as such too. She also supports trans rights. At the same time, there are people who call themselves radical feminists but their sole contribution to the movement is the trans debate and they say things about other areas of social life that suggest that perhaps their feminism doesn't run that deep.

It also depends on what you mean by 'trans' and what you mean by 'pro'.

And I think you can be pro-trans by encouraging inclusivity, having third spaces and trans-specific healthcare. The thing I disagree on is that being trans makes you automatically qualify to enter women's single sex spaces. I don't think it does and I do think it is dangerous to say that what makes someone a woman is an identity and that biology is unimportant.

There's deferent types of feminism, I suppose.

I'm not sure if I would class anyone who would deny women and girls spaces away from male people as a feminist though. Just my personal opinion.

I think you can, but only if you haven't really thought about it that deeply. IN other words if you are slightly thick.

Well, I am a feminist and I am pro trans. I have trans friends, though I know that sounds as though I am virtue signalling, it is true and has been since the mid 80s.

But I detest TRAs and the damage their ridiculous yet well heard posturing is doing to both the rights of women and the every day lives of real trans individuals.

There's deferent types of feminism, I suppose I thought that was a typo, the realised it wasn't

Yes.

But in RL, not on MN, which is an echo-chamber for one view only.

If anyone is reading this because they are genuinely interested, I wouid urge them to get off MN, read more widely and talk to people.

And I'm leaving it as general as that entirely deliberately. In the (futile) hope that even alluding to the other styles of feminism might for once escape from he usual derision/two minutes hate.

I think the preceding posts already disprove that Moggy - though that might be because I am, according to ^FriedCHickens* , thick!

And I think you can be pro-trans by encouraging inclusivity, having third spaces and trans-specific healthcare. The thing I disagree on is that being trans makes you automatically qualify to enter women's single sex spaces. I don't think it does and I do think it is dangerous to say that what makes someone a woman is an identity and that biology is unimportant

This sums it up neatly for me. Campaigning for a third space I would happily get behind, wholeheartedly. What I can not and will not get behind is the bullying and heckling deliberately undermining women and women’s rights.

We all want trans people to be treated with respect and care. BUT we do NOT want women and our rights to safety and privacy and healthcare etc. to be sacrificed. Trans people have as much rights as anyone else and this is how it should be...when they clamour to take women's rights away however, then they can go whistle!

Or what Peak said!!😉

I am pro-trans people.

What I'm not, is pro trangender ideology, or pro trans rights activist.

They are different things and it's important to keep the distinction, especially in the light of all the trans "you want me to die / you want trans people not to exist" nonsense.

Disagreeing with the trans ideology doesn't mean you hate trans-people or that you don't believe trans people should have human rights and be free from discrimination based on how they present themselves / identify. (Note, having to use a different facility to women is not discrimination, however. Arguably, being forced to use the men's is - so campaign for a third space, we'll support it!)

I know everyone here probably knows this, but I thought it was important to point it out in case anyone reading doesn't.

paintedwingsandgiantrings yes! All of what you wrote is how I feel.

I would agree that it depends of the definition of pro trans

In my view at any rate

Yes, we can be pro trans people being treated with respect whilst being against their ideology. I cannot see how any feminist could go along with the ideology. It is based on stereotypes, fetishises women's oppression and last but not least, is a load of lying bollocks because you CANNOT change sex!

I have a friend who says she is feminist. She is an ardent socialist who believes transwomen are women, seemingly because she assumes all transwomen have surgery to remove their sex organs. She doesn’t believe me that this isn’t the case.
I also this that framing this as “anti trans” or “pro trans” is wrong. I’m not anti anyone living as they chose where it doesn’t have an impact on the rights of women and girls to be safe. If , as a male, you want to choose a female name and wear a dress ? Go ahead say I. But women’s spaces are for women only, and to deny this isn’t pro trans, it is anti women.

A great deal of trans activists are in fact anti-women activists and anti-women bigots.

Im very pro trans

Im totally happy to have transmen in many female only spaces, even in sports, where appropriate, and especially where the facilities relate to female specific biology.

Transwomen. Not so much.

Should have read “I also think that “ don’t know what happened there !

IMO only if it is accepted that women and trans women are not the same
If that had happened I don't believe this conflict would be happening now
If TWAW there is no definition of woman and therefore feminism is meaningless
I believe women would have supported trans women in fighting for a third space
Feminism should be gender critical because gender hurts females
Lily Madigan said a panel of 5 men and 5 trans women would be perfectly fine
Would your feminist friend agree with that?

I don't know anyone anti trans.

Is the question you are asking can you be a feminist and believe TWAW?

If she is a lesbian, ask her how she feels about sleeping with a transwoman who has a dick.

Define trans. Define pro.

Being pro-women’s rights is not being anti-trans.

I won’t accept TWAW, but I’d stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone fighting for their right to be accepted as the individual they are.

TWATW. Their journey is entirely different, and shouldn’t IMO, be denied or ignored.

I’m anti trans ideology, misogyny, male entitlement and Male violence. They all seem to be tied up in the TRA movement.

I’m anti trans men only being recognised for having babies, but trans women taking office in roles representing women and being awarded as women.