Can you be a feminist and pro trans?

[thatdamnwoman]

Someone I have long thought of as a friend — a lesbian, someone who says she defines herself as a feminist — is also ardently pro-trans and actually says she believes TWAW. We are, trying, ever so politely, to edge our way around this: we go back years and have been part of each other's support system.

We have tried talking about it a little more today and she has again reiterated that she is a feminist. For me it's very difficult to describe yourself as a feminist and then say that XY people with penises are women.

This doesn't mean I believe that men can become women, or that men should have the right to access women's resources and spaces. Men cannot become women, and women's rights, spaces, safety and privacy should be upheld.

Yes, exactly.

To be "pro trans" you must believe in two innate majority types of mind/personality/essence.
One belonging mostly to females, the other to males.
You must believe having that female mind is more important than having a female body.
You must believe that it is acceptable to prevent females from associating freely with each other without the presence of a man.
You must be ready to punish females who don't submit to men.

Cannot agree with that.
I don't think you can categorically say that supporting the right to live 'as' a man or woman (Not becoming one) means you must also believe the above.
I don't think you can define the support like that, as people's levels and aspects of support differ from person to person, but they can remain 'pro'.

What you're asserting is akin to saying you cannot be in favour of immigration control without being racist.

What some radical transactivists are asking for is too much (imo).
How far our UK government is willing to accommodate trans may have potentially dangerous consequences (imo).
But neither of the above mean I can't support the principle of trans. I just have objections to some of the practice.

I don’t think it’s fair to exclude all trans people on that basis, or to insist people undergo surgery.

That's not the basis males should be excluded from female spaces. It's one of the issues. There are many others.

And I think you can be pro-trans by encouraging inclusivity, having third spaces and trans-specific healthcare. The thing I disagree on is that being trans makes you automatically qualify to enter women's single sex spaces. I don't think it does and I do think it is dangerous to say that what makes someone a woman is an identity and that biology is unimportant.

I agree with this.

Its possible to be a feminist and pro-trans. I consider myself pro trans..in that I obviously think transpeople should have human rights, do not want to 'eradicate' them (silly accusation generally) and think they have the right to a happy life, free of harassment and such, and I am a feminist. But I am 100% against self ID. I don't think its possible to be for self-ID, knowing the damage it has the potential to do to womens rights (which is obvious if you think about it just a little bit) and also be a feminist. As its impossible to be someone who thinks its fine to remove the rights of women, whilst also being a feminist.

But 'pro trans'..depends whats meant by it I guess.

That's where I am at Vickyyyy.

We have to balance 'rights'. I am willing to support trans rights, but not the taking of them from women.
I'm also caught up in the distinction between rights that transpeople would like (such as self-ID) and balancing those against the opportunities that abusers would welcome (such as self-ID!!!).

In some ways, it reminds me of the gun debate in the USA. Plenty of sensible gun owners using their rights well, but it affords opportunity to idiots too, and that's a danger. Are those rights worth fighting for in the face of people suffering, albeit at the hands of a relative few idiots?

I am opposed to transitioning people from one sex to another by fiat.
I think the most self destructive thing a government can do is codify belief into law. They did it in 2004 and doubled down with the EA in 2010 and it has been an absolute disaster for women and children.

The government, having done so, is partially responsible for children being taught in school that deviation from restrictive sex role stereotypes means a lifetime of drugs and surgery as a transgender. They are teaching children to dissociate from their body.

If I support the right of a creationist to believe what she wishes, and support her having the same human rights as everyone else, but oppose the introduction of creationist ideology into schools, am I "pro creationist"?

If I support the right of a flat earther to freely associate with others sharing her beliefs, and I also support her human rights, but I would deny her the opportunity to a paid role at NASA, am I pro flat-earthism?

Supporting the human rights of a group whilst rejecting their ideology does not make me pro

People are entitled to human rights.
Ideologies are not.

This is why I am not pro-creationism, pro flat-earthism or pro-trans, but I am pro human rights for all the people who follow those ideologies.

Trans is an ideology, a belief that men can become women and that females should not be allowed to deny this.

One cannot be pro the rights of females to say no to men, and simultaneously anti the rights of females to say no to men.

That's why I don't think feminism is compatible with being pro-trans.

Trans is an ideology, a belief that men can become women and that females should not be allowed to deny this.

I can see your point now you've explained it in different terms.
I think we are coming from different interpretations of trans (not just you and I, but lots of people on the thread).

If you treat trans as an ideology, as you have, then I agree with you, I'm not pro. I think it's misguided.
If you treat trans as a person, as I have, then I support their choice to live in the guise of the opposite sex, which is essentially choosing to adopt a gender role and dress code that society deems to be male or female. In that respect I'm pro.

You argue that is simply normal human rights, and it is, but human rights covers so much, it can be hard to figure which specific human behaviours are supported and which aren't. If someone is pro human rights, are the for or against abortion?, are they for or against anti terrorism laws? Etc.

But back to trans...
As well as being an ideology (as far as science cannot yet prove a cause), we still have people who have taken things a step further and undergone medical treatment to significantly modify their bodies into facsimiles of the opposite sex. We seem unsure of how to treat such people when it comes to spaces and specific rights for specific genders. Being pro human rights doesnt offer an accurate enough account of what level of support such people have. I think that is why people explain they are pro or anti trans, and go on to express the limitations of their support.

I guess they could just say they are pro human rights to dress and act freely, but stick to birth sex laws etc.

We seem unsure of how to treat such people when it comes to spaces and specific rights for specific genders

"Replacing sex with gender is like replacing modern medicine with prayer."

Doing it to yourself is bad. Doing it to others is inexcusable.

I wouldn't spend the breath from my mouth with someone who believed the earth was flat.

I wouldn't spend the time of a minute with someone who believed that vaccinations were bad.

I wouldn't spend the time of an hour with someone who believed that global warming was not in the main a man made phenomenon.

As for racists and homophobics, you don't get the time of day.

We seem unsure of how to treat such people when it comes to spaces and specific rights for specific genders

When I say that, I don't mean 'we' here - I mean our society is still pussyfooting around it and being ever so politically correct (or so it thinks). It feels like people are too scared to say 'dress how you want, but you can't change sex'. I suspect they are too scared to say it for fear of being accused. Even our government is too scared to say it, so it's little wonder much of the population is.

I'm a lesbian, feminist with some radical and Liberal leanings... I guess a middling feminist as neither 'camp' reflects my exact beliefs. I believe that TWAW but not that TW are female. I have many trans friends and acquaintances. I have shared bathrooms and changing spaces with them, as well as men in mixed gender bathrooms. I am skeptical about TW in sport and some female spaces to some extent. I am critical of gender but not competely.

My feminism is not concerned with gender as a whole. I believe that TW will have unique struggles when compared with natal females, and vice versa, but another focus is on the patriarchy and I can see how it would oppress TW, men and boys, on top of natal females, so I believe that they can be feminists, albeit in a different way to me.

Dominna yes but it’s the being female part that’s the crucial part. I know I am a woman because, like 51% of the world’s population, I was born with female genitalia and developed female secondary sex characteristics. Now for me, I ideally don’t want anyone to mandate that being a woman means something beyond that- eg that I am a natural nurturer, that I am passive, that I am altruistic. I know that in the past, that sort of thinking has been used against women to keep them oppressed. At the same time I know that the rest of society does reinforce the belief that there are innate differences and I know men and women are treated differently. I am uncomfortable about that being reinforced as some sort of truth though, especially by the state.
I know that my biology gives me certain disadvantages in terms of physical strength, which means I am at certain risk. Other functions such as reproduction also puts me at a disadvantage in a world constructed primarily for males and females who can conform to the male norm. I know that having a male body gives the owner a certain power over my female body. It is this I want protection from and recognition of. It doesn’t help me or other women if we suddenly say ‘we shouldn’t segregate based on sex but rather based on identity’. How do I tell the difference between a male body with a male identity and a male body with a female identity? Why is it common sense that I should not have to sleep in the same room as male bodies but at the same time I am told that I should get over myself if I object to male bodies with a female mind? Why do people understand and sympathise about my caution around male bodies due to previous assaults but they tell me I am hateful if I am cautious around male bodies that claim to have a female mind? How does the possession of a female mind impact on an individual’s physical strength and sporting performance?
So many questions... So I can say TWAW but not female, but do we really want to live in a world where the state officially says that being a woman means something more than having a female sex characteristics.

Yes- I'm 'proud trans' in the sense that I don't feel anyone should face prejudice because they identify as trans.

However, I'm feminist in the sense that I don't think taking on 'feminine' or 'masculine' attributes, changing pronouns, genitals or names results in an actual change of sex. Because it doesn't. And it's sexist to say that it does.

Domnina

What is ‘a woman’?

For me it’s an adult human female so totally non-separable from ‘female’

I just wondered if you could tell me what a woman is? Because I’ve asked so many TRA and just been abused or given an irelevsnt, circular argument

Like ‘women are anyone who state they are women’ which doesn’t really define anything

*Pro trans, not 'proud trans' ffs

Oh and changing with trans friends is nothing like the prospect of having to share with any trans person. I would sleep in the same room as many male people I know, but that doesn’t mean I would happily sleep in a dorm with males who are strangers or that I would be okay with sharing a prison cell with a man. Personal experiences around trans friends aren’t really relevant. The solution is obviously third spaces. Trans women don’t feel comfortable in men’s spaces (which everyone accepts) and women don’t feel comfortable with trans women in women’s spaces (which is labelled as hateful bigotry) so we have reached a stalemate. Accept that both sides have a right to choose who they get changed with and start building third spaces rather than saying that one group can choose and the other cannot.

Standing ovation to @PeakPants for a very articulate and clear summation of the issues and contradictions.

Yes I was about to say that too! You articulate these issues very clearly and reasonably, Peak. I'm sorry for any past animosity.

No problems at all Ereshki. Anyway, I realise that my views on this have shifted a bit.

I will fight for third spaces for trans people if that is what they want, but it will be a cold day in hell before I agree that you can identify into womanhood and that women who object to sharing spaces with male bodies should just get over themselves. It drips in hypocrisy and it is astounding that this is just being swallowed hook, line and sinker. It is seen to be preferable to tell a survivor of sexual assault to get a grip than to say the same to someone who, 3 years ago, was writing a newspaper column called 'MAN in makeup' but now claims to have always been female.

I am currently reading wokebros on twitter trying to wave that BBC article about trans prisoners in everyone's face as 'proof' that feminists are making it all up. Erm, dunno if I am reading the same article, but the one I read actually backs up 100% the claims feminists made about trans prisoners. Bizarre.

Erm, dunno if I am reading the same article, but the one I read actually backs up 100% the claims feminists made about trans prisoners. Bizarre.

Yes, and helpfully spells out the serious nature of their crimes.

It's a strange mindset when you are much more concerned about the feelings of a rapist (one of the 27 and 5 attempted) than the right of a vulnerable woman to not have to be incarcerated with a rapist.

Dommina
As a lesbian and a feminist what do you believe are the differences between women and men, female and male?
The argument that a male born trans person makes is "I am NOT like all other men (how so?) and I AM like those women so I must be grouped with them."

As the other half of his equation I have something to say about his claim that he and I are similar to each other, yet different to men, because: his beliefs about my psychology > what we can all plainly see about my physiology.

A transwoman cannot identify as the same thing as me, woman, without having something to say about me and what he thinks I am.

I know that transwomen are men. So when someone claims that they are women, and 'like' the 3.7 billion females in some inexplicable way, I deserve to know in what way we are claimed to be the same.

*My entirely hypothetical transwoman prefers he pronouns.

Physiologically we fall into one of two camps, barring extreme instances. A lot of shapes and sizes thereafter, but we can identify our differences almost on sight even in the same attire.

But our psychology is far more varied and overlapping and much harder to pigeonhole as male or female. Even after an intensively conditioned childhood, we still find a lot of overlap in our psychology and emotional state.
That is what makes it difficult for me to believe in 'feel like I am a woman/man'.
At times, I find myself in tune with other men, at other times with women. My sense of self doesn't align the a homogenous mass of either, but more to smaller groups or individuals who I feel have a kindred spirit (for want of a better word).

It seems to me that believing you are female inside is a delusion. It pigeon holes what someone thinks is a woman, and then identifies with that. If I found myself being kindred spirits with women almost all the time and very rarely with men, then it would not stack up statistically because there is so much psychological overlap, you could not easily find 100 same spirited women and not find a single same spirited man.
To want to dress as a woman presupposes that women naturally feel inclined to wear a skirt, or bra etc. But surely a bra is out of physical necessity rather than desire, and surely a skirt out of tradition not innate biological need.
So when a man wants to wear those items, it is not because he is female inside, it is because he has elected to want to be part of the female group. The group whose only shared attribute is XX, which he isn't. Wonen dont all think and feel the same, so he can't be joining there collective psychological group.
He is joining his own make believe womanhood.