Can you be a feminist and pro trans?

[thatdamnwoman]

Someone I have long thought of as a friend — a lesbian, someone who says she defines herself as a feminist — is also ardently pro-trans and actually says she believes TWAW. We are, trying, ever so politely, to edge our way around this: we go back years and have been part of each other's support system.

We have tried talking about it a little more today and she has again reiterated that she is a feminist. For me it's very difficult to describe yourself as a feminist and then say that XY people with penises are women.

Depends what you mean by “pro trans”. I am very pro trans people having the right to work, and be educated and travel and go about their lives under the protection of the law in peace’s and unharassed wearing whatever they want to wear and calling themselves whatever they want to be called.

What Bertrand said. That cannot be repeated often enough as it is a message that gets lost in the effort to explain why transwomen can never be women.

Feminism is a materialist concept.

Women’s biology, not their behaviour or their actions are responsible for their oppression but objective material biology.

Transgenderism is a post structural concept. That people are only quantifiable through the perceptions of those making the judgments.

That people can step in or out of whatever roles they choose.

In a post structural world, there is no need for feminism as we can all opt out of oppression.

They are opposing concepts, so you cannot be feminist and a transactivist.

Every person on this board is pro trans rights, there isn't one that is trans phobic.

It depends on the rights though. I can't be aligned to those who believe TWAW, because even some trans women don't believe this; and I can't be a part of those who believe that trans women should have equal access to sex based organisations such as those who give shelter to women and their children who have been victims of domestic violence all safeguarded under the 2010 EA.

I agree with Cantankerous re postmodernism/post-structuralism. I was already wondering what your friend does for a living / has she done a postmodern-influenced degree? Are postmodernist ways of thinking part of why she can believe this, or is it something else? Does she believe that women's oppression is rooted in our biological differences from men?

I'm not sure about wearing whatever they want to wear. There are dress codes in all societies, globally.

She’s probably done “gender studies”

Thanks for all the thought-provoking responses.

It's the TWAW thing that I stick at. I don't think you can be a feminist and say that. The person concerned is very clever, by the way: lots of letters after her name. She's very emotional about the whole thing: struggles to have a rational conversation.

I agree about third spaces. Happy to push for third spaces but I'm adamant that women must have their own protected space. I've seen two small but important-in-their-own way organisations crumble as soon as transwomen got involved and I can't support anything that would lead to more of that.

Myself and pretty much all my friends are both feminists and pro trans

You'll have to go into much more detail to persuade me you've thought all this through. Do you believe TWAW?

I don’t think you are a feminist if you think males belong in female spaces, or are the same in every way as women.

Yes I think it's possible. Transfer people being more visible and loud about their existence should be great for expanding what is acceptable and understandable about men and women. I saw a couple in town earlier today hand in hand - one had an hourglass figure, also a full beard; one was taller, more broadshouldered, small delicate features. Both wore what I would think of as neutral gothy clothing. I liked that I couldn't assume anything about either of them though inevitably I did think I knew that they were a heterosexual couple. No guarantees though and that's great.

I also think it's naive to say there are no transphobes here. I am one. I am deeply uncomfortable in conversation with people I read as trans. I don't think that's a good thing and I try to discourage it in myself. There's also a lot of approval on MN for trans people who 'get on with their lives quietly' which sounds awfully like the old 'I don't mind people being homosexual if they don't shove it down my throat' to me.

However, to me a transwoman is fighting against stereotypes of men, and a transman is fighting stereotypes of women. I don't believe people can change sex and I believe that the trans phenomenon is not physical/hormonal but a societal, cultural and mental health phenomenon. As such, to say that a man should be able to go into a space reserved for women is just daft. Penises and cunts are kept apart at certain times and places for a reason.

You are not being phobic in thinking that though annandale given your belief system.

I don't believe that TWAW either. That's my belief. I too believe that no mammal on this planet, including humans, can change sex. People are entitled to their beliefs are they not?

I would be equally uncomfortable having a discussion with someone who believed that global warming wasn't happening and that the underlying cause was not anthropogenic.

We are, trying, ever so politely, to edge our way around this: we go back years and have been part of each other's support system.

Have the same situation and met my childhood friend at a wedding earlier this year. We agreed to not talk about it though she did at first try to berate me for not being "intersectional". I said that I didn't want to get into an argument, I knew she didn't agree with me and I personally wasn't backing down. If she'd pushed it I'd have moved to full peak trans mode. She accepted this and we left it there and had a great night.

Myself and pretty much all my friends are both feminists and pro trans

IME generally these positions haven't been properly thought through and true feminists at least acknowledge there are competing rights when it comes to women's DV or rape services or smear tests.

Yes, those sort of blanket statements do leave one wondering whether the author's version of feminism is thought-through or deeply held.

If you accept that twaw then you accept that men are women and must be centred in feminism. Then you are no longer practising feminism as you are focusing on men, men's needs, men's issues, sad men etc

Women are oppressed purely because we are female, if you lose sight of that then you ain't no feminist sis. You might be a lovely person, probably are, unlike us older wimmin what stand against the sad men when they want our stuff.

What you should be asking is can you be a feminist if you are anti women and girls.

I see from younger girls and women the idea that feminism should be nicer...fluffy clouds, unicorns and rainbows...that it should include men.

Annandale, I feel the opposite. That transwomen are enforcing the stereotypes of femininity. The only positive thing i can find to say about Danielle Muscato is that at least Danielle looks like everyone’s idea of a man, and thus exposes the hypocrisy and stereotypes inherent in trans ideology. See Magdalen Burns’ video here.

You can be a feminist and be pro trans as in supporting trans people's rights.

But I don't see how you can be a feminist if you believe TWAW because it shows that you have no conception or understanding of biology - and it is biology that made feminism necessary in the first place i.e. oppression of the female sex by the male sex.

I am a feminist and pro-trans.

I think a very small minority of people struggle so deeply with their bodies that they are very unhappy. They are so unhappy are willing to mutilate themselves. They aren't the sex they wish to be but they deserve compassion and support and to live safely in society. They are often victims of male violence, I'm quite sure and that needs to stop

These people are being done a huge misservice by vocal activists who insist the penis is a female organ etc. Etc. I do not want males in female spaces. I won't budge on that. That doesn't make me anti-trans. It is very simple. I would only ever be couteous to trans people in real life

If pro-trans means supportive of an entire ideology predicated on the idea that gender is innate and women identify into their own oppression, then no, I don't think you can.

If pro-trans means demolishing gender norms and letting people be whoever they want to be regardless of stereotypical expectations, then sure, that's very compatible.

But I don't actually think the second one is what Transactivism is really pushing for, despite the 'Enby' blue haired cutesies. Because if it was, they wouldn't use stereotypes to prove their innate identities, be they accepting opposing gender norms or showing how being mildly Outre in hair and clothing meant that physical facts no longer exist.

Again.

You CANNOT be a feminist that doesn’t believe in material reason for women’s oppression

You CANNOT be a trans activist if you do

You CANNOT be a feminist if you don’t have abolition of gender as a cornerstone of your activism

You CANNOT be a transactivist if you do.

FWIW, feminism is a material concept to the end, meaning if you do nothing but TALK about feminism and don’t productively DO anything feminist, you cannot claim it as a title.

To do so is exactly the same as ‘identifying’ as a woman.

You don’t ‘identify’ as a feminist. You do material, productive work that MAKES you a feminist.

Radical feminists (especially American radical feminists) conceptualise feminism and do precisely nothing for the good of women and girls. They are actually just identifying as feminists rather than being feminists.

In a nut shell, at its extreme, both sides are fucked and have no claim to feminism