Can you be a feminist and pro trans?

[thatdamnwoman]

Someone I have long thought of as a friend — a lesbian, someone who says she defines herself as a feminist — is also ardently pro-trans and actually says she believes TWAW. We are, trying, ever so politely, to edge our way around this: we go back years and have been part of each other's support system.

We have tried talking about it a little more today and she has again reiterated that she is a feminist. For me it's very difficult to describe yourself as a feminist and then say that XY people with penises are women.

Cantankerous I beg to differ. You sound slightly crazed but the GC side is NOTHING like the mad trans folk!

In this country, I would agree. In america, they absolutely are. Lots of nonsense about women in heterosexual relationships ‘deserving’ to be abused, attacked and treated awfully because they ‘pander to men’ and so on.

It’s really a shit storm, I hope you never have to encounter it!

The problem with the trans debate is that they call anyone who is GC a ‘TERF’ meaning lots of people with no feminist interest claim to be RF because it’s the only place not stating men are women. The nefarious affect this has had on feminism
Is palpable.

Cantankerous I do agree with your point about the radical feminist label. So many who label themselves as radical feminists just because of the GC angle but are nothing of the sort and happy to uphold patriarchal structures in various other forms.

I'm not anti-trans. I don't wish them any harm, I want them to be totally free of discrimination etc.

However, I think there are fundamental disagreements between the traditional TRA view of trans rights and women rights, and these are not compatible. I am GC, and I don't believe that we can be born in the wrong body, and I believe that the trans ideology reinforces gender stereotypes, I think of we truelly abolished gender stereotypes this would help trans people immensely. This doesn't mean I don't believe that people can feel as if they are in the wrong body, but I don't think the solution to this is telling them they are a woman and allowing them to mutilate their body, I think that is quite frankly cruel. Unlike many people on the feminism boards, I don't like to say "true trans people have genital surgery" I don't want to encourage trans people to have genital surgery, I think that's almost akin to allowing an anorexic person to have liposuction.

There is huge amount of misogyny within the TRA movement, but I completely separate that from trans rights. I think I can simultaneously dislike that TRA ideology and believe in trans rights, however my view of what trans rights entails is not what they want, it is not unlimited access to women's spaces.

I don't think you can call yourself a feminist and agree with the TRA movement but that doesn't mean I am "anti-trans". It just means my view of what entails trans rights is different to theirs.

Most TRAs conflate (on purpose probably) the feminism view that men can't be women with the idea that this means they have to look like stereotypical men. I absolutely support their right to wear what they want, call themselves what they like, outwardly present themselves however they wish. I stand by anyone's right to do this, however I also believe that our sex is not dependent on how we look or act and is entirely biological.
And that is it, the only thing that make me a woman is my biology and nothing else. That means that trans women are still men, no matter how they present themselves. They shouldn't have access to women's spaces or be allowed to erase women as a sex, but I still wish them to be free of discrimination and harm.

The current position of transgender advocates is that women's rights are anti-trans.

Feminism, the political movement for the liberation of women, promotes women's rights.

Therefore it would be impossible to be a Feminist who is pro transgenderism at this point in time.
It is not impossible to be a Feminist who is also concerned about the human rights of other segments of the population. However it is utterly ridiculous to call yourself a feminist who also wants women stripped of their right to privacy and dignity.

Can I just say that the concept of

‘Good’ or ‘bad’ is subjective.

You can be, for example, pro trans and into the rights of all humans, children, animals (etc)

Therefore a ‘good’ person (arguably)

But you CANNOT be pro trans and feminist. They are opposing theories, whether one or the other is ‘right’ is totally subjective but the facts of what both theoretical concepts encompass, is very clear

There are many good transwomen and men out there. I think it must be so hard for them.
Yet the Trans Activists who post things like this are determined to be hateful, I think most of the toxic side to this debate comes from them.

The rights of women from conservative cultures and abusive relationships that cannot share mixed sex spaces concerns us. Some people want to see them removed from public life, some of us want to see them engage in public life.
They need single sex spaces and services to be able to do that.

That is just bizarre. Real true Feminists have moved on from advocating for women's rights to more important things like the femanism that intersects with men's rights.
Cool story, bro.

Choccywoccyhooha

You might want to read the pinned post at the top of the Feminist Chat board before you violate the new guidelines any more than you already have.

Women are oppressed purely because we are female, if you lose sight of that then you ain't no feminist sis. You might be a lovely person, probably are, unlike us older wimmin what stand against the sad men when they want our stuff.

I am with you Pye. No! They cannot have our stuff! (joking, sort of).

Feminism works for the liberation of women and girls. The basis of our oppression is that we were born female. TW do not meet that criteria. Very few would pass sufficiently to be mistaken into that category.

Third space works for me.

Intersectional feminism
Is about respecting the different issues that affect WOC (like not being able to disrobe in front of a male body despite ‘gender identify for one).

Not as a way to make feminism intersect with penis

Lily Madigan said a panel of 5 men and 5 trans women would be perfectly fine
Would your feminist friend agree with that?

Here's a worse one. Sal Brinton, the president of the Lib Dems, said that a parliament composed of men and transwomen would be fine - while speaking at a Fawcett Society event on getting more women into politics.

You couldn't make it up.

Feminist? yes.
ProTrans? yes.

Do I think Feminists have a right to do and say as they please? no
Do I think Trans have a right to do and say as they please? no

I support the right of anybody to change their body, or behaviour in order to live life in the role of a man, or a woman, or anywhere in between / combination. I will defend that right until the day I die.
I'll also gladly address someone as 'she' or 'he' as they prefer - it's no big deal to me, and if it matters to someone else, I'll bend to their preference.

If a black Feminist tells me they are white, I will call them a liar. That's not anti-feminist.
If an XY Trans tells me they are a woman, I will call them a liar. That's not anti-trans.

Transpeople are one sex wanting to live the life of the other sex. The motives for this vary, and that's another discussion entirely. I will gladly support them in trying to live that life - within the realms of credibility.
I will not support someone wanting their cock smear tested in order get a female experience.
I will not support someone insisting they have sex with another person, doesn't matter that genitalia or chromosomes they have.
I will not support someone with a penis wanting free access into women's spaces until I can verify their motivation for doing so, and right now, I have no way to verify that.

We have to differentiate between supporting Transpeople, and the different levels of support for specific rights they would like to have.

Support for Feminism and Transexuality are not mutually exclusive. I can't even begin to imagine how anybody could think they are.

I love Magdelen Berns on intersectional feminism.

Worth repeating, I think.
Quote of the Day: "Replacing sex with gender is like replacing modern medicine with prayer."
Doing it to yourself is bad, but doing it to others is inexcusable.

She's very emotional about the whole thing: struggles to have a rational conversation. OP, why do you think this is? It strikes me as a bit unusual - is there a personal connection involved?

I'm not anti trans, I'm pro women's rights. Feminist analysis demonstrates that women are disadvantaged by our biological sex. You cannot believe that and, at the same time, contend that TWAW, because it implies that women can identify our way out of oppression.

The most poignant demonstration of this false belief was the young transman raped by a taxi driver. Afterwards he said "I kept telling him that I was a man, but he wouldn't stop." The fact that he'd been taught that his gender identity over rode physical reality is both sad and infuriating.

The issue is what "trans" means.

I think it's entirely possible, to be feminist and pro-trans - and it's what I am - if by pro-trans you mean "pro upholding the right of anyone, whatever their biological sex, to present themselves however they see fit, without being harrassed for being gender-nonconforming".

This doesn't mean I believe that men can become women, or that men should have the right to access women's resources and spaces. Men cannot become women, and women's rights, spaces, safety and privacy should be upheld.

It's TRAs who have changed the meaning of trans, not us. They are responsible for the current mess.

To be "pro trans" you must believe in two innate majority types of mind/personality/essence.
One belonging mostly to females, the other to males.
You must believe having that female mind is more important than having a female body.
You must believe that it is acceptable to prevent females from associating freely with each other without the presence of a man.
You must be ready to punish females who don't submit to men.

I don't think it's compatible with being a feminist.

I think some women who were otherwise feminists have chosen to suspend disbelief by relocating femaleness from the body into the mind so that men can claim it too.
I suspect they don't want to examine the impact that has on women, so they never take their eyes off the men to avoid handling the conflict.

Being pro human rights for everyone is compatible with feminism.
Being protrans belief systems is like being pro flat earth theory and declaring yourself a scientist.

This is a very civil and thoughtful thread (again).

But (again again) I am sick to the back teeth of having to read post upon post upon post where the author feels they have to explicitly say they are all for people living their lives as they please etc, as a sort of "pre-caveat" to anything else they want to comment on.

Why is it only us who have to say this? Why do we always have to be made to point out we aren't nasty hateful bigots for having a different opinion that is politely and coherently made.

What other mainstream society issue or debate forces people to virtue signal just to be allowed to comment on it?

I really hate this aspect of it.

I think there’s enough overlap with feminism and trans rights, even if the individual struggles are quite different, for most of us to work together.

I share concerns about predatory men exploiting efforts to make society more trans inclusive but I don’t think it’s fair to exclude all trans people on that basis, or to insist people undergo surgery.

I don’t understand why some find it so difficult to understand that anything that can go ‘wrong’ with the human body and mind does go ‘wrong’ (I can’t think of a better word for it) particularly when so many people experience it around the world and throughout history.

I think the biggest threat to women and girls’ personal safety comes from intimate relationships with men, not trans people.

It's tricky to discuss this properly when you don't actually accept that being trans is a thing.
I am pro human rights
That covers everyone, including those who believe themselves to not be the sex they are.

I am pro women's rights, because that covers the sex which is discriminated against.

I am pro truth, pro science, pro logic, pro facts, pro justice, pro fairness and pro kindness.
I am pro critical thinking.

I can't be pro something-I-don't-believe-exists but I can be pro the-human-rights-of-the-person-who-disagrees-with-me.

I am pro communicating clearly so that people understand each other.