Trans women in women only space - a question

[user1495487816]

Please excuse the username, I can't for the life of me remember my password to change it (it's on the ever increasing to do list)

I have a genuine question, and I hope this is the right place to ask it. I've been trying to find an answer but all I seem to find is a lot of angry people on both sides on Twitter...

I understand the need for women-only spaces, and I support this. What I'd like to ask is: what is the opinion on these spaces being used by trans women who have fully transitioned ie. no longer have male genitalia?

I suggest you read the hundreds of threads on the issue going back the last few years of the feminist board.

There is no one opinion.

Some people think this is acceptable, others don't.

What's your opinion.?

I opened this thinking it was about actual space and astronauts and stuff.

I’ll get my coat.

I prefer that idea to self ID where any Tom, Dick or Harry (pun intended) can say they're a woman without changing anything about themselves at all with regards to surgery.

My issue is that any dude can self ID and use that opportunity to perv and assault women in intimate female spaces.

I have a trans sexual friend (MtF) and she uses the women's changing room at the gym. She has had full surgery. So in that way, there is no rape risk. No penis, no problem!

My personal opinion is no penises in women only spaces

I guess you could think of such a person as a eunuch and there is a hstorical precedent for such individuals being in female spaces.

On the other hand you could consider that a person like this would still have a male gaze which wouldn't be appropriate in a female space.

Not sure where I stand TBH.

@charliethefeminist

Personally, I think if someone has made that decision and is, and has been, living as a woman, then those spaces should be available to them.

I appreciate in the current climate things have become muddied and it's hard to find where to draw a line.

In the example of domestic violence refuges, I can understand the need to protect vulnerable women from males, but I don't see how a fully transitioned transwoman would pose any greater threat than a natal women in that situation? Surely some women who are seeking refuge may have suffered at the hands of a female partner? So unless those spaces were designated as straight woman spaces, there's no way to police that?

I frequently talk myself around in circles, hence the post.

I'm really pooped and read the title as "Trans women - only in space" and now my stomach hurts from laughing

I'll bite.
Post-op: still looks male in many cases, hence issue of challenging vs not, where the "not" poses a safeguarding issue. Post-op is very rare. Sets up a gatekeeping position nobody on here actually takes (ie promotes dangerous and unnecessary surgery which has a complication rate of 30% - that isn't aesthetic complications either)
Added to that you are reducing women to a vagina and men to a penis - a male soldier with his genitals blown off is still a man (this is a common injury in the recent wars). Likewise if I had a problem with my vagina I'd still be a woman. A neovagina does not make a person a woman.
Lastly safety - removal of the penis only means it isn't there to be used to rape. There are a million other ways to commit violence, sexual or otherwise. GRS is no indicator of temperament! Zoey Tur threatened Ben Shapiro, who is much smaller than her, Zoey is post-op. I wouldn't like to have to fight her...
So I don't think there's a clear argument for allowing post-op transwomen into women's spaces but other posters may disagree.

AngelsAckiz

Yes, I agree with you there.

I don't want to appear transphobic, and it's complicated territory. I support women's rights, and always have done, but equally, I can't bring myself to believe that there are enough men out there who would use the guise of gender dysphoria as a means to abuse women to alienate those who genuinely feel they should have been born female.

Have you heard of William Jaggs?

Aw. I thought this would be about Astronauts!

Maybe we need more debates about gender identity and space travel

@Turph

This is where I get confused - the stickers going up with "women don't have penises" - doesn't this add to the process of reducing women to vaginas?

I appreciate the physical strength differences are a factor, although that being said, that's not a given - both sexes come in different shapes and sizes.

OP, how can anyone tell who has and hasn't had the surgery below the belt?

I can't bring myself to believe that there are enough men out there who would use the guise of gender dysphoria as a means to abuse women
It's not much of a guise though is it? Mr Dodgy Bloke just has to call himself genderfluid or non-binary or a butch lesbian. He doesn't need to dress up like Emily Howard.
In fact all he needs to do is attack someone and hope his lawyer can come up with some gender warrior bullshit really. He doesn't even need to have considered it beforehand.
I guess part of me feels bad about genuine trans women and on an individual basis and where it was my choice to make I'd include them. The other part of me is a bit tougher and thinks that their seclusion, exclusion and other issues are 100% not my problem, in the way that the existence of homelessness does not mean I need to take a stranger in to live with me. I can be concerned, give time or money, but not have to give up my space.

This is where I get confused - the stickers going up with "women don't have penises" - doesn't this add to the process of reducing women to vaginas

They say "women don't have penises" not "women are vaginas". Women have many many different characteristics, having a penis is never ever one of them

@MusicMammaMia

I haven't a clue! I'm new to the conversation and trying to understand things. Thought I'd ask the question here because it seems a friendlier place for information - elsewhere on the internet it seems to become quite angry quite quickly!

Defining women by their biology is not 'reducing them to their vaginas'.

At the moment we use the honour system. It mostly works. I like the honour system, as it depends on people being amenable and sociable.

Women don't have penises - even in space.

I can't recall any episode of a space opera - Star Trek et al - where the alien temptress had a penis; an extra breast maybe, definitely feelers, a tail possibly, greeny-blue skin, an ovipositor? Never a penis.

@Turph

I am with you entirely there. It shouldn't be an option to use the current fascination society seems to have with gender flexibility to make criminal actions ok. And i get what you're saying with your comparision to the homeless.

I guess I have a similar line of thought, it just upsets me that genuine transwomen (I don't even know if that's a correct term? Feels wrong, but I'm not sure how else to put it) end up being marginalised thanks to men, again.

I appreciate the physical strength differences are a factor, although that being said, that's not a given - both sexes come in different shapes and sizes.
This is said so often that I think most people believe it. Ronda Rousey, the toughest biological woman ever in MMA fighting, is of the equivalent strength to an untrained average male. Even an older, younger, fatter, thinner man is stronger than any woman on this thread. In the rare occasions a woman "wins" an actual fight with a man, she has had to be cunning, vicious, or armed. I appreciate I might get a few people who disagree with me because the idea offends them, but it is 100% true. The difference in strength between a male adult and a female adult is marked and it is one of the most important reasons why females both adult and child need spaces away from males.

Aah those fabulous stickers
They express a truthful reality
Women don’t have penises
If you have a penis then you are not a woman
It’s factual not fictional they don’t reduce women to “just” a vagina
They just state the bleeding obvious
My use of words is intentional

I guess I have a similar line of thought, it just upsets me that genuine transwomen (I don't even know if that's a correct term? Feels wrong, but I'm not sure how else to put it) end up being marginalised thanks to men, again.
Two things here: Firstly the amplification of this argument, the removal of nuance, the #nodebate crap, the doxxing, the dirty tricks are all from men, who have thrown the transsexuals under a bus. Secondly we feel bad for them because we are conditioned and socialised to look after the vulnerable. I agree transsexuals are vulnerable but I'm resisting the notion that it's my problem to solve.