Trans women in women only space - a question

[user1495487816]

Please excuse the username, I can't for the life of me remember my password to change it (it's on the ever increasing to do list)

I have a genuine question, and I hope this is the right place to ask it. I've been trying to find an answer but all I seem to find is a lot of angry people on both sides on Twitter...

I understand the need for women-only spaces, and I support this. What I'd like to ask is: what is the opinion on these spaces being used by trans women who have fully transitioned ie. no longer have male genitalia?

OP, if you're new to the debate, this is a really good thread to read:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?msgid=80131230#80131230

I've worked in the NHS for 30 years. The only physical violence I've suffered is from trans women blowing their tops about having to wait or whatever. Even the ones who have transitioned seem to have violent men like tempers.
I know women have tempers and assault people too but they are not generally 6 foot plus with big hands and feet.
I'm very wary of them now.

@paintedwingsandgiantrings

Thank you, that's really helpful :)

Personally, I think if someone has made that decision and is, and has been, living as a woman, then those spaces should be available to them

What does living as a woman mean exactly? Bearing in mind only women actually live as women.

I would prefer that the men expand the space they occupy to include all males rather than expecting women and girls to share, the shockingly limited space they have been allocated in the public sphere, with males.

It is important to remember that when you include males in female designated spaces, or females in male designated spaces, you have now made them into mixed sex spaces and in the case of schools are in violation of safekeeping laws.

ISP I think it's the appeal to fairness. As in, they've made an effort.
It's why my acquiescence is strictly limited to when the decision to include would affect only me. I'm not immune to the "if they've gone through all that they must really want to be a woman" argument. I'm pretty sturdy and as invulnerable as a woman can be; I've known transsexuals I'd be happy to share spaces with too, but if I include someone on my say-so the burden of risk should be on me, not other women. And my decision would be on a person by person basis, as I wouldn't draw arbitrary lines between AGP and HSTS, or young and old, or hormones vs none, never mind surgery vs none (and the latter would be impossible to police without being ludicrously intrusive).
So if you put a gun to my head and asked "all post-op trans women are allowed in women's spaces or no persons born male allowed in women's spaces" I'm going to go with the latter for simplicity. No matter how hard someone might have tried.

It is important to remember that when you include males in female designated spaces, or females in male designated spaces, you have now made them into mixed sex spaces and in the case of schools are in violation of safekeeping laws.
This is where we need a fundraising site (one used to working with contentious causes) for a legal fund. Each council (for example) who knowingly breaks the law like this after being informed by concerned MNers should be challenged in court. We all know councils haven't got money to waste on courts, so they'd get lawyers to review the strength of their case. Said lawyer would advise settling out of court. Then watch the ripple effect. Some orgs and LAs would fight til the end (Cambridge and Brighton spring to mind for some reason) so we avoid challenging them.
This would have to be done before the GRA is changed and the EA made worthless by doublespeak.

Do you think there should be single sex spaces or services at all?
If you do the why, given that it is not possible to change sex, would you argue for trans women in womens spaces
As far as services go women have nothing in common with trans women who have male biology

(Not usually active in these threads but thought I’d add m view)

My opinion is how on earth would anyone know anyway, if a woman comes in to the gym changing rooms with obvious breasts and no penis - who on earth would ask her to move Incase she’s a man.

If a man is an evil rapist, he’s hardly going to get his penis chopped off and thus his pleasure taken just so he can oggle woman that he can’t do anything to - that would be a ridiculous view.

Perfectly welcome.

Man with a penis, no. Trans - Woman with a vagina, of course.

I don’t agree with self ID because it’s worrying that any bloke can say he’s sally and come into a changing room, but onc you’ve gone through the torture of gender reassignment I feel you should be free to live your life in peace and be treated with respect.

Those who disagree with someone who’s had reassignment surgery being in a woman’s changing room are in my opinon, the problem with the real issues being taken seriously.

Personally, I would be ok with a post op transsexual in the same space as me, provided they behaved as I would hope any person/woman would behave in that space - privately and respectfully.
But women don't have willies. So, no willies in the single sex spaces please.

equally, I can't bring myself to believe that there are enough men out there who would use the guise of gender dysphoria as a means to abuse women to alienate those who genuinely feel they should have been born female.

There are more predatory males in the world than trans people. Alas.

Not all men, etc etc, and certainly not all trans people - I think a majority of people share the view that they are sympathetic on a person-by-person case.

But sex segregated spaces exist because if male violence to females.

user1495487816 wrote - "I can't bring myself to believe that there are enough men out there who would use the guise of gender dysphoria as a means to abuse women"

The many news reports of this happening show that there are already more than enough men out there who have used the guise of gender dysphoria as a means to abuse women.

Disclaimer: My comment does not mean that all people with gender dysphoria abuse women. My comment does not mean that all abusers, who use the guise of gender dysphoria as a means to abuse women, actually have gender dysphoria.

I don't believe that it's possible to change sex, however, if a transwoman has had full SRS and no longer has a penis then I have no problem with them being given a GRC and accessing women only spaces.

It's the self-id that will be abused by predatory men that is the real problem. By campaigning for that, the TRAs have made life more difficult for those transwomen who did discretely use women's spaces without causing a problem.

The thing is...
Women are not men-with-body-alterations.

If a man loses his penis, whether in an accident or electively, I don't suddenly find a magical realm of common experience with him.
Same with any amputated body part.
Man without arms? I expect he's not a physical risk to me.
I'm not going to strip naked next to him.

I'm female and he's male. He's entitled to bodily privacy from the opposite sex and so am I.

Otherwise, what you are arguing is that women can only expect safety. But not privacy or dignity. We might as all strip naked behind windows with a male audience like an Amsterdam brothel. As long as they can look but can't touch us that's as much as we can hope for.

Are you comfortable being naked in front of your Dad? Your brother? Your elderly uncle? No? Why - if you think they are lovely and won't hurt you?
Women are entitled to privacy away from ALL men. Even the nice ones. The ones who don't respect that are probably not as nice as they say they are.

Are you comfortable being naked in front of your Dad? Your brother? Your elderly uncle? No? Why - if you think they are lovely and won't hurt you? Women are entitled to privacy away from ALL men. Even the nice ones. The ones who don't respect that are probably not as nice as they say they are.

This.

My opinion is how on earth would anyone know anyway
That's the honour system really.

If someone passes so well that nobody would know she was born male then it'd be daft to argue against her inclusion. It would be impossible to prevent without some kind of inspection parade! I guess that is "passing privilege".

You can't change sex.

Women's spaces are for women, not males.

Surgery and hormones don't mean a male is 'more of' a woman than a male that doesn't want to or can't, for health reasons, alter their body in those ways. Furthermore, males sometimes pursue surgery or hormones for puposes of sexual obsession rather than dysphoria (hence all the porno pervy transitioners).

Males need to cope with their issues without crossing women's boundaries.

Males who believe themselves to be women are not women's responsibility and are not entitled to claim to be women, entitled to women's rights or to use women's spaces.

Your mate using the women's changing room is taking liberties and disrespecting women, forcing them to be unconsenting devices for validation.

I think men should be told to make their spaces safe for their non-conforming brethren. As others have said, this is not my problem to solve.

The best was to maintain the privacy and dignity of sex segregated spaces is for men to make room for all males instead of turning them all into mixed sex spaces that provides no privacy and dignity for anyone.

Socially/personally I accepted without question the idea of post op mtt using female toilets (but not other segregated services like prisons, hostels, sports, shelters) Now, however, philosophically and legally, I don't think it is feasible for women to have to make the distinction, and for that reason I support a 3rd space instead. Sex segregation should mean segregation by sex not gender.

Surely some women who are seeking refuge may have suffered at the hands of a female partner? So unless those spaces were designated as straight woman spaces, there's no way to police that?

Either you are baiting with this, deliberately, or you haven't considered the question. Men and women don't offend at the same rate. Most violent criminals are men. Most sex offenders are men. Most domestic abusers are men. Most victims of crime, whether men or women, are victims of male criminals.

There are women (straight, bi and lesbian) who commit violent crime, including sexual assault, but they are a fraction, a tiny fraction, of the total number of violent assaults and offences committed by men. If you are looking at patterns of abuse, it's men who are the problem, not women, whether those women are lesbian or not.

"But what about lesbians" posits lesbians as sexually predatory, and is in my book homophobic.

I think there is a very strong argument for creating spaces for trans women and men. Enabling them to choose to opt out of the original space they used but also enabling women to retain their safe spaces.

I can't bring myself to believe that there are enough men out there who would use the guise of gender dysphoria as a means to abuse women to alienate those who genuinely feel they should have been born female.

I used to think that, having only had limited experience with "old school" transpeople who basically just got on with it.

I'm clearly naive though, because after listening to a podcast about the Carly Ryan murder in South Australia, I was gob smacked at just how much work that predator put into accessing his victims.

It wasn't opportunist, it was detailed, methodical, consistent and meticulously recorded. So much work in order to lure victims.

I don't know how typical he is, but if other predators as anywhere near as dedicated, if dressing as a woman got them what they wanted, they wouldn't hesitate. I'm still aghast at the story to be truthful.

I can't bring myself to believe that there are enough men out there who would use the guise of gender dysphoria as a means to abuse women to alienate those who genuinely feel they should have been born female.
There were numerous men who trained as teachers or priests or scout leaders or charity workers as a means to abuse children.
When the access to vulnerable people is easy, abusers will make use of it.