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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can a man teach feminism?

555 replies

lucydogz · 11/08/2018 14:18

Reading the Guardian colour supp today, an article about gal dem quotes 2 young black women saying they were shocked, when taking a class on Feminism at Bristol university, that it was taken by white man.
Firstly, I see no relevance in his race. But why shouldn't a man teach Feminism?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 12/08/2018 10:34

Women being over sensitive and not having senses of humour?

NotDavidTennant · 12/08/2018 10:35

Exactly. How can men be neutral? Good point well made. I have such a poor grasp I made it right at the start of this thread. star

Note I said relatively neutral.

Nice twisting though.

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2018 10:36

Oh oh oh I've got this! .Women liking carrying the lion's share of the domestic work!

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 12/08/2018 10:36

No, I worked for an organisation that knew that if they wanted top quality women they'd have to do things to attract them, and keep them, and not be sued*. That is the point. The top companies are in my experience like this. The issue is how to make sure that extends to the rest of society, and a big part of that is other types of privilege, education, etc.

Lol.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 12/08/2018 10:46

Note I said relatively neutral.

How can men be relatively neutral?

chemistrylab · 12/08/2018 10:47

I give up. Enjoy your "radical feminism".

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 12/08/2018 10:49

I give up. Enjoy your "radical feminism".

Radical means getting to the root.

Nobody enjoys radical feminism.

I'd love to just give up.

LassWiADelicateAir · 12/08/2018 10:50

The aim is to teach students from a relatively neutral point of view about feminism as a political movement/system of social analysis, not to inculcate them into feminism

Exactly. How can men be neutral? Good point well made. I have such a poor grasp I made it right at the start of this thread

Yes, nice twisting of what was said but if the premise is no man can be neutral does it follow all women will be ? Given the regular dismissal on here of liberal feminists presumably someone like Laurie Penny would be just as unsuitable?

Cwenthryth · 12/08/2018 10:55

What did you think of the video?

I subscribe to Peachyoghurt on Twitter & YouTube, I’ve seen it before, it’s a decent explanation of the basis of radical vs liberal feminist thought although obviously designed to explain the radfem gender critical viewpoint on transgenderism so not directly addressing the question here. You seem to assume that I follow a libfem philosophy, I do not. However I do not agree that a class analysis of male oppression of women dictates that all men are incapable of understanding feminism.

PeakPants · 12/08/2018 10:56

If you are a lawyer, read my points again because I didn't just say leglislate I also talked about enforcing legislation and I also talked about cultural change

So why then do you scoff at suggestions that men should take on an equal share of domestic and caring work and say that it should be up to individuals to decide? All the points Bertrand raised were to do with cultural change and you said this wouldn't work and that legislation was the way forward. What legislation do you suggest? The thing is that legislation is somewhat toothless without radical social change. It's all well and good having equality legislation, but genuinely, unless men step up and do half of the caring work and until caring work is adequately valued and compensated, it doesn't matter- things will continue as they are.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 12/08/2018 11:00

However I do not agree that a class analysis of male oppression of women dictates that all men are incapable of understanding feminism.

I didn't say they were incapable of understanding it.

My view is that if they understand it, they would know that by taking the wage, and standing up and teaching it, means they would be crossing the line from understanding it to not-actually-understanding-it-at-all. It is just one of those things that I believe.

placemats · 12/08/2018 11:13

However I do not agree that a class analysis of male oppression of women dictates that all men are incapable of understanding feminism.

No one on this thread has suggested that though. I would posit the theory that ALL men understand feminism and the class analysis that comes with it. They know exactly what it is and what is expected of them as men to bring emancipation for women. They also know that men hold power in this world.

chemistrylab · 12/08/2018 11:21

So why then do you scoff at suggestions that men should take on an equal share of domestic and caring work and say that it should be up to individuals to decide?

I didn't scoff. This is a complicated point, actually, and i'd be really happy to debate it with you when I can come back to the thread later.

All the points Bertrand raised were to do with cultural change and you said this wouldn't work and that legislation was the way forward

No, I said what she was proposing wouldn't work. Cultural change is definitely needed.

What legislation do you suggest?

I will reply if you are interested, later

The thing is that legislation is somewhat toothless without radical social change. It's all well and good having equality legislation, but genuinely, unless men step up and do half of the caring work and until caring work is adequately valued and compensated, it doesn't matter- things will continue as they are

Are you quite a junior lawyer? Because as the years go by you will find some excellent high achieving colleagues choosing (ie making informed choices to do with what they think is best for dc and knowing they will be able to return) to leave to be sahms for a few years, returning part time as a choice. Not because they are oppressed or because of male privilege or because the men in their life won't step up. By choice and as the preferred option.

NotDavidTennant · 12/08/2018 11:29

How can men be relatively neutral?

By being trained as an academic and having an awareness of the role of personal biases in influencing how you might present a subject and having some awareness of how you might use that awareness to minimise the impact of those biases.

And ideally by being the kind of person who values intellectual inquiry and opening up your student's minds to a range of different ideas, rather than trying to inculcate them in the one "true" set of beliefs.

NotDavidTennant · 12/08/2018 11:35

I will add one other thing.

If the question is, "Is a male academic the ideal person to teach feminism?" then I would agree that the answer is almost certainly no. The top academic experts in the world on feminism are all women I'm sure.

However, if the question is, "Is it possible for a male academic to make a decent stab at teaching feminism at undergraduate level if circumstances require him to?" then in my personal view the answer to that question is yes.

PeakPants · 12/08/2018 11:42

Are you quite a junior lawyer? Because as the years go by you will find some excellent high achieving colleagues choosing (ie making informed choices to do with what they think is best for dc and knowing they will be able to return) to leave to be sahms for a few years, returning part time as a choice. Not because they are oppressed or because of male privilege or because the men in their life won't step up. By choice and as the preferred option.

Am I quite junior? I qualified 8 years ago if that answers your question. Does that impact on my ability to debate feminism and understand the forces at work that oppress women? I also no longer practise, so my qualification date isn't very important.

What I am more interested in is the way that social structures shape what we think of as 'free choice'. It is indeed a choice (someone making me do something while holding a gun to my head is also still me making a choice), but it's made in the context of significant constraint. Women are told that we cannot have it all- we have to 'choose'. When we choose, we are told that we made the choice, we cannot complain. Men don't have to make the same choices. They can have it all.

Think about it. Child care is expensive, often sub-par, out of sync with working hours. Employers and employment generally is geared towards a hypothetical person with no dependents. In law especially, the expectation is long hours, short notice and an expectation to drop everything and be flexible. The even wider context to that is that we live in a competitive 'have it now' society. Law is incompatible with family life. It requires presenteeism, working until you make yourself ill and and often causes stress and depression in employees.

The division of work is often presented as a choice too. Is it really though? There is a huge expectation that caregivers are female. We have not moved on to the extent that we believe men can be good carers. Women who go back to work are 'putting their career first', often having to justify it with 'I would love to stay home, but I can't afford it'. Women do not get promoted at the same rate as men, regardless of whether they have children. The very thought that they COULD have children makes many employers wary in a way that they never even think about with men. Women are also taught constantly to be subservient, they are likely to have the lower-earning career in the first place because so many men cannot handle a woman who out-earns them. So of course it makes sense for the woman to give up her job.

As for people choosing to leave law, I know so so many women who have left law altogether, abandoned any hopes of rising to the top. You might say choice, but I (and most of them) say constrained choice. It's odd isn't it how men can have aspirations at the beginning of their careers and go on to fulfil them, yet women so often seem to magically change their minds and decide that they didn't actually want to be a QC or a partner or a professor? Must be our inherent flakiness... Or could it be that for a woman, being a QC comes at a cost that isn't there for a man on anywhere near the same level?

If you do want to debate it, I am happy to do so. However, my baseline is that nobody makes totally unconstrained choices and that every time someone talks about women's reduced economic position being a choice, it's ignoring the various oppressive structures that exist in our society and which need to be broken down.

Oh and as for being a SAHM for a few years and easily coming back to law on a part-time basis- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Seriously.

whatnow123 · 12/08/2018 11:50

The best way to force men to take up their fair share of domestic/childcare duties is for women to stop doing them. Go on strike. Society would crumble within a day and changed would be forced.

Or keep asking men to do stuff and get nowhere with it.

placemats · 12/08/2018 11:57

whatnow

Didn't you get the memo?

It's up to women to 'educate and train' their partners by way of getting things done.

Cwenthryth · 12/08/2018 12:41

Apologies, Sturdy, I’ve misunderstood you.

I asked you repeatedly why you thought men were incapable of understanding feminism, and eventually you replied ‘because they are men’. I then thanked you for clarifying that you believed that men were incapable of understanding feminism because they were men, and you didn’t correct it. Hence my understanding that you believed that.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 12/08/2018 12:51

I asked you repeatedly why you thought men were incapable of understanding feminism, and eventually you replied ‘because they are men’. I then thanked you for clarifying that you believed that men were incapable of understanding feminism because they were men, and you didn’t correct it. Hence my understanding that you believed that.

I thought I did [correct it] when I posted this:

I didn't say they were incapable of understanding it.

My view is that if they understand it, they would know that by taking the wage, and standing up and teaching it, means they would be crossing the line from understanding it to not-actually-understanding-it-at-all. It is just one of those things that I believe.

Cwenthryth · 12/08/2018 12:58

Obviously now you have, but you previously hadn’t hence why I made my point about disagreeing that a class analysis of male oppression of women dictates that all men are incapable of understanding feminism - a belief I understood you held by extrapolation of your earlier points.

Anyway, it’s been fun wims but I’m going to graciously bow out of this thread now, I can’t see what there is to be gained from continuing, especially as I feel we are all ultimately on the same ‘side’ - women’s - and it does feel a bit like being picked at for having a different opinion (men can be capable of understand and therefore teaching feminism). Really interesting discussion though, thanks.

thebewilderness · 12/08/2018 21:30

The comment about it doesn't happen in my house is to do with the fact that I was brought up from a very young age to expect to be treated the same as men, to have the same opportunities, same rights, and so in my house and in my life that is my expectation and that is what I get.

Must have been a hell of a shock the first time you went out your door.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 13/08/2018 05:33

Not irrelevant to this conversation.

"Meanwhile, statistics obtained in 2013 by Times Higher Education revealed that only about one in five UK professors are female, with the percentage of female professors at some universities as low as 8 or 9%. Data from the non-profit organisation Catalyst suggests that the imbalance persists internationally, too.

Set alongside the unconscious bias of academic recruiters themselves, as well as the difficulty of juggling parenthood with the demands of research, the apparent sexism in student evaluations provides yet another hurdle for women in academia."

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2015/feb/13/female-academics-huge-sexist-bias-students

VeryVerySilly · 13/08/2018 11:30

Of course a man can teach feminism. If a fact is spoken be it by a man or woman it is still a fact, if people stop teaching because they are not a member of the same race/sex/minority then education would become very homogenous and ineffective and would reach very few. Could a female white woman teach feminism in the West, even though she could never possibly understand the plight of woman in the middle East? Of course she could if she knew the subject well. However by the same logic as the people in this thread the teacher would have to be an oppressed Arab woman as she could understand the plight of woman at it's worst but that would be a very specific group to pull from and wouldn't be helpful in the long run.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 13/08/2018 12:01

Ok I didn’t know how woefully women are underrepresented in professorships, that does put a different complexion on the subject. I will reorganise my thinking accordingly. Thanks for posting it.

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