Can a man teach feminism?

[lucydogz]

Reading the Guardian colour supp today, an article about gal dem quotes 2 young black women saying they were shocked, when taking a class on Feminism at Bristol university, that it was taken by white man.
Firstly, I see no relevance in his race. But why shouldn't a man teach Feminism?

The comment about it doesn't happen in my house is to do with the fact that I was brought up from a very young age to expect to be treated the same as men, to have the same opportunities, same rights, and so in my house and in my life that is my expectation and that is what I get. Not because the men around me are remotely enlightened. They are not, though I am doing my best to bring up my sons differently. What I meant was that if you bring up women in a certain way it makes it harder for them to be trampled upon unreasonably by men.

This is as absolute an 'Not my Nigel' as I have ever seen.

Feminism isn't about your house. Or mine. Or Bertrand's.

It is about women as a class.

I'll post this again for those who just didn't bother to watch it the first time around.

If your arguments about feminism are based on 'I've done OK and I'm a woman', you really, really don't understand feminism.

It's sexist to think he can't. Feminism isn't just for females just because of its name and anybody who thinks so needs to go learn what it actually means.

I find it fascinating that whenever men are asked to actually step up and do something- like, for example, challenging a sexist culture in their own workplace and social circle or take a fair share of childcare and domestic work, there are always people leaping to their defence, basically saying why should they? Bloody depressing, really.

sturdypyjamas - I think I did. It is because they are men. And from the point of applying for a job teaching feminism, shows that they don't understand it in that case there is not much use bertrand putting men to work in the way she proposes either, is there?

bertrand I think what is bloody depressing is that you think that someone saying "women can do it" really means "poor men leave them alone".

You however did just totally undermine your argument by arguing that men are fine and can teach it, but also don't get it. Weird how they can do both. Must be because they are such fabulous men.

I didn’t do that. Again, distinction between the ease of seeing the oppression and the need for feminism, vs understanding feminism itself ^(once an individual has seen it/got it, for clarity).

Thankyou for clarifying your belief that men are incapable of understanding feminism simply because they are men. I disagree, so we’re never going to agree on issues that follow from that. I appreciate you engaging though.

Feminism....is a whole way of looking at every male action and how it impacts females as a class.

This isn’t a definition that I’ve met before - that feminism is essentially an ongoing critique of all male behaviour, do I understand that correctly?

in that case there is not much use bertrand putting men to work in the way she proposes either, is there?

I think you are confusing the difference between men treating women like valid human beings, and teaching others why men should be treating women like valid beings. Which because they don't treat women as a class, like valid humans, biases will set in that make it impossible to teach the topic. Again, the very point.

I think I did. It is because they are men. And from the point of applying for a job teaching feminism, shows that they don't understand it.

You seem to be studiously ignoring the people who have pointed out that academics often don't get much of a choice about what they teach.

The man in question almost certainly didn't apply for a job entitled "Lecturer in Feminism", more likely he will be something like "Lecturer in Politics" or "Lecturer in Social Studies" and then has simply been asked to teach a specific class in feminism because he was available.

Most likely, his refusing to teach the class would not suddenly create a job opening for a woman to teach feminism. Instead it would just be given to someone else on the existing faculty to teach.

You also seem to have quite a poor grasp of what is actually involved in teaching an academic course on feminism. The aim is to teach students from a relatively neutral point of view about feminism as a political movement/system of social analysis, not to inculcate them into feminism.

No academic should be teaching their students as fact that "men as a class hate women as a class". That should be taught as something that has been argued by, and influenced the analysis of, particular strands of feminist thought. Teaching it as fact is no more appropriate than teaching Marxist belief as fact.

This isn’t a definition that I’ve met before - that feminism is essentially an ongoing critique of all male behaviour, do I understand that correctly?

It isn't a definition, it is one explanation.

What did you think of the video?

Can you suggest ways in which women can challenge sexist culture and behaviour in men's social groups and male dominated work places? Can you genuinely see no difference between a man calling another man out on, for example, rape jokes and a woman doing it? What about stopping using prostirutes-women should definitely do that, but it wouldn't make much impact. What about taking responsibility for a fair share of childcare and domestic work-I'd say that the vast majority of women do that already- we're talking about med doing it!

@sturdy ok so I have just watched your video. The woman talks about her own experiences about being oppressed towards the end so she is also using her own personal experiences to try to explain her theories. Basically, I don't see the world in the same way as she does, so I would not be considered a radical feminist by her. She would see me as a liberal feminist, who just doesn't understand. Yes? But you can't tie what I said to what she has said about Nigel or NAMALT because I didn't refer to some men being decent, I wrote only about women.

The thing about "privilege"... there are lots of types of powerful "privilege" affecting us all which nothing to do with men - it is easier to get on if you are educated, attractive, slim. The male aspect is just one aspect. Also... she talks about men as one whole class (and women) which doesn't take into account the vast differences in how men behave between countries, classes, societies. Middle class men in France for example spend far more time with family have a far more active role around the house and in relation to childcare and if you ask the women about it they would say much of that is down to them! It is just more complicated that she allows for.

You seem to be studiously ignoring the people who have pointed out that academics often don't get much of a choice about what they teach.

This is a thread asking if men can teach it.

Not asking my thoughts on university policy.

You also seem to have quite a poor grasp of what is actually involved in teaching an academic course on feminism. The aim is to teach students from a relatively neutral point of view about feminism as a political movement/system of social analysis, not to inculcate them into feminism.

Exactly. How can men be neutral? Good point well made. I have such a poor grasp I made it right at the start of this thread.

fogging

Awesome

Another great term

The thing about "privilege"... there are lots of types of powerful "privilege" affecting us all which nothing to do with men - it is easier to get on if you are educated, attractive, slim. The male aspect is just one aspect

Lol. Boardooms the world over are full of educated attractive slim women. Well done them!

Usually making the coffees tho.

Some really bizarre, contradictory arguments going on.
Men get to tell women to stop telling them what to do while at the same time invading women's spaces and activism.

In an ideal world, people would be assertive and respect the boundaries. In real life they don't, and men frequently overstep the boundaries, so that their actions have a negative effect on women.

• Men don't seem to be able to see the effect of their behaviour and it has to be pointed out to them. They don't seem to be able to self regulate, and have to be controlled with legislation.

• Women point this out and ask men to step back over the line they crossed.

• Women are told their activism is extreme, that they have no right to tell men what to do.

rinse and repeat ad finitum, while our boundaries are constantly eroded, and mens constantly expand.

I think you are confusing the difference between men treating women like valid human beings, and teaching others why men should be treating women like valid beings

But I am not. Why do you think some men treat women as they do? It is naive to think that bertrand's list would make the blindest bit of difference, and some of it is just plain wrong - ensuring committees at work reflect the number of women in an organisation is not going to work and it isn't needed, I can tell you that with absolute certainty. As I said, I worked with excellent women and I did not once come across people being side lined due to their sex, because I worked for organisation which knew the law, kept to the law, created a culture which stuck to the law, knowing also that the calibre of women working there would mean they'd have their pants sued off if they didn't.

As I said, I worked with excellent women and I did not once come across people being side lined due to their sex, because I worked for organisation which knew the law, kept to the law, created a culture which stuck to the law, knowing also that the calibre of women working there would mean they'd have their pants sued off if they didn't.

You worked for a company that needed the law. That is the point!

Lol. Boardooms the world over are full of educated attractive slim women. Well done them! Usually making the coffees tho

You are wrong.

No academic should be teaching their students as fact that "men as a class hate women as a class". That should be taught as something that has been argued by, and influenced the analysis of, particular strands of feminist thought. Teaching it as fact is no more appropriate than teaching Marxist belief as fact

I agree.

If the premise were accepted that it can only be taught by a woman, then which woman? Given that liberal feminists are regularly dismissed on here as compliant, misguided handmaidens presumably they are no more neutral or qualified to teach than men are.

You are wrong.

So the boardrooms are full of women the world over, being board members are they?

Or are you saying the women who used to serve the coffee have been replaced by machines?

"It is naive to think that bertrand's list would make the blindest bit of difference"

So do you think that men calling out other men on sexist behaviour in their social group or taking a fair share of child care or domestic work would not "make the blindest bit of didference"?

You worked for a company that needed the law. That is the point! No, I worked for an organisation that knew that if they wanted top quality women they'd have to do things to attract them, and keep them, and not be sued. That is the point. The top companies are in my experience like this. The issue is how to make sure that extends to the rest of society, and a big part of that is other types of privilege, education, etc.

So do you think that men calling out other men on sexist behaviour in their social group or taking a fair share of child care or domestic work would not "make the blindest bit of didference"? Ask yourself, though - where does the behaviour come from?

Male entitlement?