Can a man teach feminism?

[lucydogz]

Reading the Guardian colour supp today, an article about gal dem quotes 2 young black women saying they were shocked, when taking a class on Feminism at Bristol university, that it was taken by white man.
Firstly, I see no relevance in his race. But why shouldn't a man teach Feminism?

As the op, i'd like to say thank you to you all for your responses. I've found it very interesting to read. Fwiw, i agree with TerfsUp that I would be happy with a qualified man teaching it.
I am still shocked, however, that the women said that they didn't like it that the man was white. Obviously only white people are racist in the Guardian

What would his qualifications be exactly?

How can a man stand up and explain to women, with no bias, that men as a class hate women as a class?

Or that men as a class proliferate the wearing of high heels as it makes it harder for women to escape rape or attack?

And that men don't like women talking without them being in control...as proven by the man in the room - being in control. And taking the wage for it,

Aye, right, Top work there.

There is a nasty, horrible ideology here that is akin to the far right.

Yeah, course there is.

I know Glitched, it's not nice is it? Women of all sorts having a vigorous discussion about a subject they're passionate about, and not stopping to make sure everyone has had enough biscuits.

Bertrand I’m afraid I don’t understand what you mean by ‘gloss’ there - perhaps I’m hard of thinking, although I feel insinuating that people you are disagree with are just stupid is rarely a productive strategy. To me your follow up response came across as a clarification of a previous simplistic statement, apologies if you didn’t mean it that way.

Oh come on now, Glitched. A breeding ground for fundamental feminism? What are you so afraid of?

And as the saying goes, if you're not getting angry, you're not paying attention.

Everyone can and should teach feminisim. No tutor should be allowed to teach at an educational establishment if they're not fully committed to equal rights. But a course that specialises in feminism? Or a course aimed at raising consciousness in women over issues they may be so used to they've accepted them? I think that job should go to a very experienced feminist woman as she will pick up on nuances that a man won't because he's not lived through them.

I was a very conscious feminist in my youth. Though I'd never have called myself anything other than feminist throughout life if anyone asked, I got side tracked by motherhood. Recently, on the boards here mainly, I've woken up a bit again to casual misogyny and I just can't tolerate it. For example, yesterday DH said in a joky voice, clearly intended for me to comply with: 'I was wondering why there was absolutely nothing worth reading in the Guardian supplement today. The cartoon's not funny. The articles are dull. Then I saw: It's exclusively written by women and non binary.' He said this in a tone as though he thought I'd agree that it was ridiculous for them to lower the standards in the cause of equality, rather than point out that it was offering him viewpoints different from his own. I just said. 'So, for once in your life, a white male is not the target reader.'

Stuff like that. White men just don't see it.

I've just come back from teaching at an international summer school. It was full of the most brilliant, vibrant and fearlessly feminist young women I've ever met. (Especially the Indian women. Never encountered such frank, powerful claiming of space, sexuality, voice. It was so energising.) Among the conversations were the casual racism they encounter. One young Latina woman described some of the things men say to her daily. I couldn't believe it. Not that I thought she wa slying, but that I realised how carefully men ensure that they say what theysay when no one is watching or listening. So there are no witnesses to the racism. I think this is also true of misogyny.

Sorry - long essay. But fascinating question.

Cwenthryth - I provided a list of things that men within a patriarchy could and should be doing to challenge the role that they and other men play in supporting said patriarchy, and your response was “None of these require a penis!”. I am frankly fed up of NAMALT, “but women do it too” and all the other weasely ways of making men’s behaviour the responsibility of women. Men could change things “today^ if they wanted to. They just don’t want to.

“This place really is a breeding ground for feminist fundementalism.”

Can you expand on this, please? What does feminist fundamentalism look like and who are the feminist fundamentalists?

For example, yesterday DH said in a joky voice, clearly intended for me to comply with: 'I was wondering why there was absolutely nothing worth reading in the Guardian supplement today

I agree with your husband. In any case if the thread yesterday about Gal Dem is accurate they don't seem to adopt the "gender critical" feminism as adopted by the majority of FWR posters.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3332495-gal-dem-article-anyone-read-it

Bertrand you’re misrepresenting me - my “doesn’t require a penis” comment was soley in direct response to you stating that the actions you listed were things “women can’t do for themselves”. It was simplistic and facetious, and a product of me feeling got at on the thread, for that I apologise, it was unnecessary. We’re in agreement that men’s behaviour needs to change, we just have different approaches here.

FWIW I don’t think that acknowledging that some women participate in sexism, misogyny and upholding patriarchy is a weasely way of making men’s behaviour the responsibility of women. It’s saying that we are not automatically blameless by virtue of being women, we can only be responsible for our own actions not those of others, but we can strive to stop participating in our own oppression.

White men just don't see it.
I agree with this. What is the answer?
Do men need to see it for things to change?
How can they be made to see it?
What can we (women) do to effect this?
Can we indeed do anything if what needs to happen is changes in men’s behaviour?

White men just don't see it.
I agree with this. What is the answer?

If white men don't see it how can they teach it?

I do wonder at why people jump to such ready assumptions as:

how can a man explain why they got the job over a woman. Was it the experience? Nope. Was it the qualifications? Nope. What else? Apart from patriarchy - would qualify a man to get the job over a woman?
Was it the qualifications? Quite possibly yes. Or any one of a number of other reasons - timetabling constraints, no woman wanting to teach the course etc etc.

It tells them, when a man is lecturing on feminism rather than a woman, that men are better than women

No - it tells them that on this occasion a man (not all men) was better than the available women (if any).

“FWIW I don’t think that acknowledging that some women participate in sexism, misogyny and upholding patriarchy is a weasely way of making men’s behaviour the responsibility of women. ”
Neither do I. But responding to a list of things that men specifically could/should be doing on a thread about men in feminism with “but these are things women can do” is. The point is that men need to stand up and be counted. But they don’t want to.

Feminism at university is an academic subject studying feminism - its ideology, writings, criticism etc. It is not How To Be A Feminist. If you have a critical brain and can teach, you can teach Feminism.

It's as simple as that.

FFS, Sturdy. I’ve already explained my opinion on the teaching question, I believe quite clearly. And several times drawn the distinction between the ease of seeing (experiencing) women’s oppression and understanding the need for feminism vs the ability to understand feminism itself and therefore the capability to teach it, as an academic subject. You still haven’t answered my question however, as to why you believe men to be incapable.

I was agreeing with Mina’s point about men (not) seeing sexism/misogyny/patriarchy and expanding on it, wondering ‘aloud’ as to how it could be remedied. Hoping to move the conversation on. Feel free to come with!

CertainHalfDesertedStreets Sat 11-Aug-18 23:57:48
I don't even get the point of these arguments.

It's called 'fogging'. Its a technique used to muddy the waters and dilute the point of the conversation.

You still haven’t answered my question however, as to why you believe men to be incapable

I think I did. It is because they are men. And from the point of applying for a job teaching feminism, shows that they don't understand it.

It is in most of my posts. I am not shy about stating what I believe.

You however did just totally undermine your argument by arguing that men are fine and can teach it, but also don't get it. Weird how they can do both. Must be because they are such fabulous men.

Feminism at university is an academic subject studying feminism - its ideology, writings, criticism etc. It is not How To Be A Feminist. If you have a critical brain and can teach, you can teach Feminism.It's as simple as that.

It is far from simple, when a man who is happy to take a wage from a woman, this is showing the underlying patriarchy in action and this disqualifies a man from being able to teach it.

Feminism isn't a lesson plan. It is not about completing word searches. It is a whole way of looking at every male action and how it impacts females as a class.

how can a man explain why they got the job over a woman. Was it the experience? Nope. Was it the qualifications? Nope. What else? Apart from patriarchy - would qualify a man to get the job over a woman?
Was it the qualifications? Quite possibly yes. Or any one of a number of other reasons - timetabling constraints, no woman wanting to teach the course etc etc

Lol. Yes no woman wants to teach feminism, that's we need the men to do it for us.

Bertrand again, I wasn’t responding directly to your list, but to your statement that “women can’t do these things for themselves”. It came across as playing right into chemistry’s point about asking men for patronage, which does feel undesirable. I disagree with chemistry on her view about not wanting liberation, but, there’s a good quote somewhere about freedom being something that is taken not given.

Like I said I think that we broadly agree here - about men taking action being important for change to happen - so it’s probably not a productive use of our time to quibble about this.

@Bertrand

Where only the most extreme form of feminism is acceptable and correct and there is no longer any room for nuance.

Where a certain extreme core of women get to dictate to other women what they must do, or how they must behave, or how men must behave, in order to be approved, or at least not vilified.

If men were behaving the way these extreme core women are behaving their extremism would be clear.

Feminism is an ideology. All ideologies can have their extremes. Right now the extremists are in full force and are radicalising people.

Feminism is an ideology. All ideologies can have their extremes. Right now the extremists are in full force and are radicalising people.

AKA women - don't have a heated discussion about something you feel passionate about, not whilst there are chores to be done.

Where a certain extreme core of women get to dictate to other women what they must do, or how they must behave, or how men must behave, in order to be approved, or at least not vilified.

I'm not dictating, I will happily concede that men know it all, if provided with any evidence that they do. But one person who yesterday was adamant that men are just fine teaching this stuff, has stated that they don't even get it.

If there are any men that understand it enough to teach it, they usually accede that it would never be their place to do so - because they get it.

Which is the very point.

@peakpants I didn't ridicule the points at all. It was me being ridiculed in fact. I think the thing is, I have worked for decades at a high level amongst men and women who are truly excellent, and who are on a level playing ground, and this is how I come to my redacted points - which I wrote quickly, late at night. I know for a fact what goes on, and how legislation ties in. If you are a lawyer, read my points again because I didn't just say leglislate I also talked about enforcing legislation and I also talked about cultural change

If @bertrandrussell feels got at there is no need to. It is one person saying to another, I don't agree with you, and this is why.

The comment about it doesn't happen in my house is to do with the fact that I was brought up from a very young age to expect to be treated the same as men, to have the same opportunities, same rights, and so in my house and in my life that is my expectation and that is what I get. Not because the men around me are remotely enlightened. They are not, though I am doing my best to bring up my sons differently. What I meant was that if you bring up women in a certain way it makes it harder for them to be trampled upon unreasonably by men.

I realise I put a few people in a tail spin last night but what I was saying was not outrageous at all, it reflects how many women think, it just isn't often that they'd take the time to write it on here. So, in summary, I don't agree, bertrandrussell that we should be asking men to do these things for us, because we are equal and we could achieve the same ends by different more effective means.

@dancelikeemmagoldman as I said above, what I wrote was not based on years of study, no, nor from the perspective of fresh out of uni, but rather as someone who has worked at the coal face for years. I have worked in a competitive field, a traditionally male dominated field though no longer male dominated, at a senior level. What I was suggesting hasn't been considered by bertrandrussell yet. If you sit down to play poker and the rest of the players are holding marked cards, you're not going to win, no matter how talented you are I think it depends on what you see as winning. I am not going to convert bertrandrussell today but it is still worth my saying I disagree and why.

"Where only the most extreme form of feminism is acceptable and correct and there is no longer any room for nuance."
What form does the most extreme form of feminism take?