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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can a man teach feminism?

555 replies

lucydogz · 11/08/2018 14:18

Reading the Guardian colour supp today, an article about gal dem quotes 2 young black women saying they were shocked, when taking a class on Feminism at Bristol university, that it was taken by white man.
Firstly, I see no relevance in his race. But why shouldn't a man teach Feminism?

OP posts:
chemistrylab · 11/08/2018 23:01

@bertrandrussell I think it is each of our responsibility to take charge of our lives, and make changes in our lives we want to see, yes. Sorry. If you want your man to do it for you, that is your choice, but in terms of society, yes I would see women asking men to do things for them, which women are quite capable of doing for themselves, as a backward step.

On the other hand, if men are brought up to have respect for women and empathy and self control, they will not need to be told what to do.

whatnow123 · 11/08/2018 23:04

All joking aside, I recently listened to a woman debating masculinity and found it interesting. I now realise, I was sorely mistaken in my viewpoint.

thebewilderness · 11/08/2018 23:06

I recently listened to a woman debating masculinity and found it interesting. I now realise, I was sorely mistaken in my viewpoint.

Who were they "debating" masculinity with?

BertrandRussell · 11/08/2018 23:11

“Sorry. If you want your man to do it for you, that is your choice, but in terms of society, yes I would see women asking men to do things for them, which women are quite capable of doing for themselves, as a backward step.“

But none of the things on my list are things that women can do for themselves. That is rather my point.

whatnow123 · 11/08/2018 23:15

A panel of three men & two women. Interesting points made all round. To dismiss the views of woman on masculinity because they are women, seems a bit sexist.

thebewilderness · 11/08/2018 23:16

BertrandRussell

I think chemtrails read what they decided you meant instead of what you what you actually wrote or they are just playing the straw man game. One of those. They appear to be new to FWR.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 11/08/2018 23:17

To dismiss the views of woman on masculinity because they are women, seems a bit sexist.

The question wasn't 'can men have views on femininty' though was it?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 11/08/2018 23:21

Women should have nothing to say about how men interact with other men or the worid in general. They aren't men so can't understand

Oh! I see what you did there! That's, like, so brilliant.

I mean - it would be if there was any equivalence at all there - between men telling women how to run a movement which seeks to end the class based oppression of women and women telling men about their oppression so men can stop oppressing them.

There isn't though so you get 1/10.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 11/08/2018 23:27

I like your list Bertrand. I don't think we do #6 very well in our house but only because there's a very limited list there Hmm. Otherwise dh is pretty much perfect, must get him to apply to teach Gender Studies somewhere. Grin

Cwenthryth · 11/08/2018 23:28

Bertrand I think many of the things on your list are things women can do:

  • Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour
  • Challenge sexist work practices
  • Stop watching porn.
  • Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bechdel test.
  • Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed. (really?)
  • Think about how they parent their boys

None of these require a penis!

thebewilderness · 11/08/2018 23:37

Considering that 8% of UK women watch porn I am guessing that stopping will help them immensely but have very little effect on the rest of us.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 11/08/2018 23:57

I don't even get the point of these arguments. Women can end their own oppression themselves? Do we just have to really want it? Is it that we haven't been trying hard enough?

Are we doing feminism wrong again?

It's victim blaming writ large.

PankyE · 12/08/2018 00:10

Liberal feminism: equality of the sexes

Radical feminism: liberation of women from oppression of patriarchy by means of gender.

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2018 00:12

Of course women can do them! But the point is that men need to do them too. Men's behaviour needs to change-and only men can do that.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 12/08/2018 00:35

None of these require a penis!

i am so sorry but this is exactly what i mean when i say that some women don't even understand feminism.

LassWiADelicateAir · 12/08/2018 00:51

In the context of an academic course I don't see any reason why a man can't teach the history and philosophy behind the various groups of feminist theory. I don't see any difference between this and teaching philosophy, poltics or jurisprudence.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 12/08/2018 05:28

If you sit down to play poker and the rest of the players are holding marked cards, you're not going to win, no matter how talented you are.

When we ask men to make changes, it's not a matter of getting them to do our work for us.

  • This is another fine mess you've got us into 60,000 years of patriarchy, now get the fucking broom and clean up your own mess. -

We've had all sorts of equality legislation over many decades, but privilege, because it controls things, always manages to find a way around. The fact that 5% of the population control 90% of the world's resources should tell you that.

I think that in a thread about teaching feminism, it would be useful to evidence some understanding of the basic theoretical constructs - particularly if you're fresh out of university.

Using a dictionary definition of feminism and then saying, "I agree with that", is a reductive approach to a rich and complex subject with a deep catalogue of profoundly theoretical thinking.

Sexual politics is a class-analysis. Within the class of "women" or "men", individuals might do better or worse, but overall analysis shows that women as a group suffer disproportionately under patriarchy.

"In 1963, Betty Friedan had called the “feminine mystique” the problem with no name. It was Ms. Millett who gave it a name — sexual politics — and explained its cause: patriarchal society. By introducing the concept of “patriarchy as a political institution,” she equipped her readers to become their own theorists of culture. Ms. Millett revolutionized our thought by helping us to perceive the power structures in what had previously been cast as apolitical terrain: the home; literature; romantic relationships.

It felt so liberating to realize that we could follow her lead. We could take this fundamental insight to our jobs, our schools, our marriages — and to politics itself. Theory mattered. It was capable of propelling real change."
Carol Adams on Kate Millet's Sexual Politics

And Germaine Greer explaining why equality is a proper aim for feminists.

"The feminist and author Germaine Greer has said that aiming for equality is a “profoundly conservative goal” for women, ...

“What everybody has accepted is the idea of equality feminism,” ...

“It will change nothing. War is made against civilian populations where women and children are the principal casualties in places like Syria, whether in collapsing buildings or bombed schools.

“War is now completely made by the rich with their extraordinary killing machines, killing the poor who have no comeback. Women are drawing level with men in this profoundly destructive world that we live in and, as far as I’m concerned, it’s the wrong way. We’re getting nowhere.

“If we’re going to change things I think we’re going to have to start creating a women’s polity that is strong, that has its own way of operating, that makes contact with women in places like Syria, and that challenges the right of destructive nations.”

Women needed to aim higher and achieve more than simply drawing level with men and entering into traditionally male-dominated fields, Greer said.

“If what happens when women discover when they join the army is they discover it’s no place for a sane human being then they’ve learned something,” Greer said. “But right now, things are looking distinctly grim.”

www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/09/equality-is-a-profoundly-conservative-goal-for-women-germaine-greer-says

As to men teaching feminism? It's been said up-thread, that since they're teaching "facts", men as as capable of teaching feminism as women, which is probably true up to a point. Except that knowledge is not constructed in a vacuum, it is created in a political context which is a product of differential power.

A male academic is in a highly privileged position - to have them then teaching the discourse of the oppressed from that position of privilege might be practical, but not necessarily ethical.

There is much sensitivity around cultural appropriation presently with oppressed minorities arguing their right to tell the stories of their own culture. I doubt we'd be comfortable with white academics teaching histories of black America or indigenous peoples. Imagine a chair of African American studies being given to a white academic.

But women's culture is seen as of so little importance that men teaching it aren't see as appropriating culture?

Edward Said wasn't writing about women, but his concept of the domination of culture is applicable to this conversation.

"Said showed that the myth of the Oriental was possible because of European political dominance of the Middle East and Asia. In this aspect of his thought he was strongly influenced by the French philosopher Michel Foucault. The influence from Foucault is wide-ranging and thorough, but it is perhaps most pronounced when Said argues that Orientalism is a full-fledged discourse, not just a simple idea, and when he suggests that all knowledge is produced in situations of unequal relations of power.

In short, a person who dominates another is the only one in a position to write a book about it, to establish it, to define it. It’s not a particular moral failing that the stereotypical failing defined as Orientalism emerged in western thinking, and not somewhere else."
www.lehigh.edu/~amsp/2004/09/introduction-to-edward-said.html

PeakPants · 12/08/2018 05:54

Chemistry we have legislation. We have equal pay legislation, pregnancy discrimination legislation. We have legislation coming out of our ears. I am a lawyer- trust me, anyone looking at our legal system and statute book would think we had complete equality. Because on paper, we do. Yet we don’t have it in reality. That is why it’s insufficient to just say ‘legislate’. And you have not even clarified what you would legislate. What we need is change in a much more profound level and that involves some of the points listed by Bertrand and for you to ridicule them shows that you’re not interested in change.

Also the comment of ‘well, this doesn’t happen in my house’ shows that you are so so far from understanding these issues that it’s unreal. Read, read, read, read some more and then try again.

Cwenthryth · 12/08/2018 06:26

Apologies, I was being facetious - Bertrand had just written “women can’t do these things for themselves”, she’s since clarified what she meant.

Cwenthryth · 12/08/2018 07:26

Dance that’s a really interesting post, reads like a student essay! My opinion is that lecturers are probably quite often “teaching the discourse of the oppressed from (a) position of privilege” - for me the important aspect is how they do this, their approach and treatment of the subject, not their personal background, and I wouldn’t seek special treatment for feminism above any other aspect of social science/philosophy/political studies. We’re not talking about the chair of a department - someone who leads direction of research and represents the subject - the question was, simply, can a man teach feminism.

Also I reject your point about culture - aside from wishing to resist drawing parallels with racism, as personally I’ve found doing that ultimately unhelpful in these conversations - I don’t see feminism strictly as ‘women’s culture’. Feminism is only necessary due to patriarchal oppression and I object to the insinuation that women’s culture is soley reactionary to patriarchy. There’s also plenty of aspects of ‘women’s culture’ across the world that are not feminist and do not require feminism, the two are not one and the same. Saying feminism is ‘women’s culture’ also allows the follow-on logic that feminism is only women’s problem - and clearly, the issues that feminism identifies cannot be solved by women alone, I think ultimately we’d all agree on that, whether we’re choicey/equal/libfems, liberation/radfems or somewhere in between or elsewhere.

Sturdy it comes across that you think any of us not 100% agreeing with you ‘don’t understand feminism’ (getting dangerously close to ‘you’re doing feminism wrong’ there). I can only speak for myself but I’m an intelligent woman, reasonably well read on the subject (book pile ever growing!) politically (and feminist-ly) active, I partake in direct pro-women actions in public and private life, and am that fun sucker in the office who declines to join in the everyday sexism/misogyny, points out when a film didn’t pass Bechdel etc. So - please - just explain what you mean, stop with the good griefs and oh dears, the answering a question with a question, it just feels as if you’re sat behind your screen rolling your eyes believing you know better. It’s incrediby off putting, and I believe only serves to turn women away from feminism. What is it you feel I/we/women haven’t understood about feminism? Do you think there is any room for differing opinions and schools of thought within feminism?

TerfsUp · 12/08/2018 07:28

I don't care who teaches an academic subject at university provided they are qualified to do so.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 12/08/2018 07:45

I actually do believe that feminism forms a women's culture, which is not to say that there are not many forms of women's cultured. But was explaining why I'm not a fan of men teaching feminism, and it was a general response, not particularly directed at you Cwenthryth.

But thank you for the comment that my response read like a student essay - it's very kind of you to proffer the compliment.

Cwenthryth · 12/08/2018 07:57

I didn’t think it was directed as me individually, sorry, just replying in an open forum 😀. And that was meant as a compliment too just to be clear - I wasn’t being sarcastic or offhand, it can be difficult to get tone across online especially when there is disagreement on the issue at hand.

BertrandRussell · 12/08/2018 08:09

Bertrand had just written “women can’t do these things for themselves”, she’s since clarified what she meant."
I didn't clarify what I meant- I provided an exasperated gloss for the hard of thinking.