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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is he crying? Laura Huteson death

284 replies

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 10/08/2018 15:39

Laura Huteson death: Hull man killed woman in 'bizarre' sex game www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-45140580

How often hetersexual men die during “risky” sex games because I can’t think of one case from the news? I know that sadly happens in same sex couples/ participants (can think of a couple examples from the news) but in hetero? It seems it tends to be women who love being throttled, punched, tied up, brutalised.

What does it mean he did not intend that to happen. What did he think would happen.

OP posts:
failingatlife · 10/08/2018 22:22

I am sickened at this story. As the mother of teens I am terrified for my daughter & worried what horrible examples of masculinity my sons are seeing all around them. That poor woman, her family must be devestatedFlowers

Ereshkigal · 10/08/2018 22:26

WTAF? That's disgusting.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 10/08/2018 22:32

“Nagging and shagging” is that a legal term?!

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LangCleg · 10/08/2018 22:37

LagerthaTheShieldMaiden - I'm sorry you got caught up with a man like that. Flowers

Piccolino2 · 10/08/2018 22:43

I feel helpless. I read about these things and have 2 young daughters. Babies. In 20 years time is some bastard going to harm or kill them because he's been watching porn and wants to act it out? Is our society that sick that this is normal now? How can anyone say that porn is harmless? Are women just there to be used and abused? Is that what society thinks? I guess so.

I feel SO SO angry about all of this and yet don't know what to do, so I do nothing. It's like it's all too much. I get appalled and angry and then livid and then I have to step back because I want to scream but who do I scream to? Sometime I just cannot take any more of this absolute shit. Manslaughter for murdering (at the very least) a young woman. I absolutely cannot imagine what their families go through. And he has the audacity to cry tears for himself. I feel sick to think about it.

LangCleg · 10/08/2018 22:45

It looks very straightforward and in the face of such an appalling low sentence it would be worth many of us dong this.

The thing is, the sentence isn't that low for manslaughter. The median sentence in 2017 was 8 years. And sentences are getting longer: the median for manslaughter was 5 years in 2007. For the crime charged, the sentence isn't egregious.

I think the question is - how could anyone credit no intent to kill (given Bowl's remarks on this thread) and how was this charging decision arrived at?

LangCleg · 10/08/2018 22:50

DrinkFeckArseGirls - the proper term was provocation defence, popularly known as nagging and shagging. It only got changed ten years ago. Until then, men who killed their wives and girlfriends used it to get their charges reduced from murder to manslaughter.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/jul/29/law.ukcrime

This is what I'm saying about this case. If pornsick men are going to be killing women left right and centre because they're acting out PornHub's top ten, we've got to legislate that sex games gone wrong is not a defence if it's obviously reckless with the life of a partner. Then we'd start getting murder charges instead of manslaughter charges.

WaddIelikeapenguin · 10/08/2018 22:55

LagerthaTheShieldMaiden Flowers

Your post is valuable

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 10/08/2018 23:00

Thanks Lang. I wasn’t sure I wanted to google it. Wow, 10 years back, eh. So could have that been used that if your child was bugging you? Or adult brother or mother? Or just female partners? Hmm

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WeWantJustice · 10/08/2018 23:06

Right, I think we need a petition about this issue, there have been too many men getting away with murdering women and claiming it was an accident.

Here's the wording of a petition, any suggestions for improvement?

Title: Abolish the defence of accident and consent, for killing someone during sex

There have been several cases recently in the news, where men have been found not guilty of murder, when they killed women during sex. They claimed the dead women had consented to acts of strangling, torture etc., even though they had only just met. The women were dead, so could not contradict these men.

More details
Most women do not want to be strangled, tortured or cut with knives at any time, whether they are having sex or not. The presumption should be that if someone is dead, they did not consent to the action which caused their death and that the person who killed them, carried out these acts without their consent and in fact, murdered them. In every other situation, there is a duty of care to someone else and there should be no exception for sex and no getting away with murder.

There is quite a strict word limit on what can be written so that's what I've done so far.

Any improvements?

Datun · 10/08/2018 23:09

LangCleg

The comments under that article! Wanting to bring back the crime of scolding. And almost, to a man, concentrating on bringing a halt to physical abuse being a legal defence for women who kill their abuser. Disagreeing with it.

Just enormous high dudgeon over that. And hardly any comments about the nagging and shagging repeal.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 10/08/2018 23:12

I’d gave to read it properly in the morning wewamtjustice.

I think ending up dead is the epitome of lack of consent - not assuming since someone is dead they lust have consented to whatever.

OP posts:
LagerthaTheShieldMaiden · 10/08/2018 23:21

Thank you LangCleg. It's a million (20 plus) years ago, and has no relevance to my life now, until I remember.

WeWantJustice · 10/08/2018 23:22

Yes off to bed now, morning is fine, I'm too angry to be coherent at the moment.

Fucking men looks like a hazardous activity nowadays.

hipsterfun · 10/08/2018 23:31

In a system that won’t allow peaceful assisted dying for informed, consenting people who are terminally ill, this outcome is inconsistent, to say the least.

WellThisIsShit · 10/08/2018 23:52

God it’s horrific. The crime and the punishment.

Every so often you can’t ignore how little you matter. What a piece of trash you really are to the only other members of society who really count. It’s sobering and yes, horrific.

It has just occurred to me that maybe this is why so many women deny the need for feminism... maybe it’s just too damn painful to face what we are in men’s eyes.

LagerthaTheShieldMaiden · 11/08/2018 00:17

I very often wish I'd never seen it. It must be nice to pootle along and see nothing. I do miss it! Once the blinkers are off they're really OFF. You can't see anything the same anymore. I'm glad, but I do think being a handmaiden must be easier!

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 11/08/2018 00:33

In domestic violence situations, non-fatal strangulation is a huge risk factor for eventually being murdered. If someone attempts to strangle you, they're 7 times more likely to kill you eventually than if they chose another method.

Ereshkigal · 11/08/2018 01:30

He slit her throat. And it's being written off as a "bizarre sex game gone wrong".

Ereshkigal · 11/08/2018 01:51

This is seriously concerning. Violence against women (it's always against women) has become mainstream - where a court accepts that A WOMAN STABBED IN THE NECK somehow CONSENTED ?! WTAF. What the fuck is going on.

It's similar to the court who decided that a man who stabbed a woman in the back was acting in "self defence".

Bowlofbabelfish · 11/08/2018 06:44

wewant

Some sort of line in there about the actions of one person causing the death of another ?

Need to distinguish from cases where someone has had a cardiovascular event for example during sex (which isn’t too uncommon) and died of that.

But yes, I agree with you - violent action causing death during sex should be prosecuted fully. Would the Spanner case be useful here? That seemed to imply that one cannot consent to damaging acts?

(Not a lawyer! So not the best person to advise...)

Farahilda · 11/08/2018 07:51

"So if someone asks me to punch them, I oblige, they die, then I’m not responsible"

Punching, quite possibly so. BecUse it all comes down to intent, and thereis a level of (what could otherwise be assault) one is 'allowed' to consent to. But if I all ended up in court, then it would be a a casei of whether the person had a reasonable belief that the action was wanted. So for example, a couple who had met on a BDSM site should be able to have the sex of their choice without fear of prosecution.

There is however a level of harm to which no one is permitted to consent. The infamous case of this was in Germany (Armin Meiwes, the Rotenberg cannibal) - where consent was known to be given, because of the actions both and videos of the events.

Strangling deaths do occur from time to time.

Sex with props is terribly common. But with a knife?
Has anyone read the full sentencing embarks from he judge? They ought to show quite clearly what the court heard.

What does it mean he did not intend that to happen. What did he think would happen"

That would be found in sentencing remarks. The press report is that there was no suggestion that the violent sex as not consensual. That's quite a strong statement, and presumably evidenced (eg witnesses, calls/social media use at germane times, conduct around the time of the incident, and in this case I guess evidence of the nature of the relationship - including anything about the sexual aspect that either of them had discussed with third parties)

The role of intent is important in murder, and part of he definition in English law. There has been huge consideration of how far one is allowed not to intend the obvious outcomes of actions (if you want a good but dated literary version, try 'Thrones, Dominations' by Dorothy L Sayers, where it's an element in the plot)

From that press report, I cannot see why he was not tried for murder. Nor why the sentence was so low (manslaughter sentences can be considerably higher). A full version of the remarks might be illuminating.

WeWantJustice · 11/08/2018 08:12

OK here's amended:

There have been several cases in the news of men being found not guilty of murder, when they killed women during sex. They claimed the dead women had consented to life-threatening acts even though they had only just met and that the deaths were accidental. The men's unlikely tales were believed.

Most women do not want to be strangled, tortured or cut with knives at any time, whether they are having sex or not. The presumption should be that the duty of care we all have to each other in every other situation in life, does not suddenly disappear in sexual situations and that if you cause the death of another person, either in or out of bed, you should not be able to use the defence that that person consented to the risk that you would kill them. Stop men getting away with murder.

LaSquirrel · 11/08/2018 09:16

Dead women can't speak
Worth repeating.

Similar smears against the murder victim in Jane Longhurst's murder. Coutts claimed the same, that it was a 'consensual' 'sex game' 'gone wrong'. What got him the big sentence, he put her body into a storage unit and revisited (probably raped) her body several times after. Raping a corpse, zero consent. Longhurst was the friend of his girlfriend, there was no indication of any consent, even to 'sex'. Rather, I suspect he lured her there saying her friend was there, then raped and murdered her. He will likely get out in about 2033, despite the appeal.

It takes usually a while to strangle someone (most usually, 2-3 minutes, however, it can occasionally be achieved in less). Both the carotid artery and windpipe have to be compressed during that time. Generally, it is a lot of time required, and plenty of time to back out before death.

Taking on board Bowl's comments about the degree of force to slash the throat of human or animal. I am disturbed that Ms Huteson's murder was generally described as a neck stabbing, when the BBC report: "severed 21-year-old Laura Huteson's jugular vein and carotid artery with a knife while having sex". Severed is generally not a stabbing, more a sweeping slicing action, but sure, could be REPEATED stabbings to achieve that result. If a 'stabbing', again, plenty of time (past one) to back out of murder.

Either way, meeting someone that day, and just happening across some shared interests in dangerous 'sex games', is a long shot. Both porn and BDSM have a lot to answer for in these ritual misogynist killings of young women for male pleasure. His crocodile tears of "loved her" - seriously? Day 1, or even less than Day 1? Don't take us for fools.

I gather the drawcard in all of this, is a 'promised' (to men) uber orgasm as the woman dies with him inside her. Plus power trip of course, taking someone else's life.

The six year sentence in this case is a bloody joke.

LaSquirrel · 11/08/2018 09:17

I like your amended version WeWantJustice