"Feminism is equality"

[MrGHardy]

This is a response by a woman to a man talking about feminism:

"Your understanding is wrong. Where does everyone get this idea that feminism is some kind of for-all happy umbrella? It's for the equality of women vis-a-vis men. And men, Mr. Read, don't get to decide what feminism is."

I have come across this so often recently, where feminism is portrayed as "for equality so it is also for men" etc. and this Twitter user used a good phrase: "some kind of for-all happy umbrella".

I think it's a deliberate misrepresentation of feminism, in order to distract the discussion away from the issues, away from women, and to paint women in a bad light as some sort of female supremacists if they disagree with the idea, feminism is equality for all i.e. also for men. The idea "feminism is for women does not imply it is not for equality" seems also hard for people to understand and is easily misrepresented.

How do you deal with this? If you constantly have to first convince people that feminism is not for men, not a blanket "for-all happy umbrella", it gets very frustrating and distracts from the issue at hand (and instead leads to a debate about what feminism is, and what its goals are and who it is for). Additionally, as a man you are quickly accused of mansplaining (especially by women who for some reason believe that feminism is also for men) or at least asked for a definition which is a) difficult to do for me b) at least in my case necessarily leads to accusations of mansplaining.

Can you not see the assumption that women will be the primary carer

Why don't understand that some, no, most women will want to be the primary carer.

NuShooz, that's not the point.

The assumption that women will be the primary carer in a family means that women as a class, whether or not they have children, are structurally disadvantaged.

I have never witnessed such an extreme lack of understanding of the realities of women's lives. The pressures we face in caring for children and elderly relatives, the health issues especially after childbirth, the housework that so many men so not do so women are forced to, the domestic abuse and violence that affects our mental health not to mention our sickness record, the bias we face in getting overlooked for promotion again and again...But no, we CHOOSE all that fucking shit!

And the main thing you're missing is why?

Why? Because men and women are biologically different.

Are you seriously suggesting they're not smart enough

Don't be ridiculous.

Plus women suffer in their careers whether they have children or not

Care to give an example?

Women CHOOSE it because their male partners often progress quicker in their careers thanks to sexism! So it makes financial sense.

Can you not see the assumption that women will be the primary carer

Sorry harping on about dh....

One of the partners at his work was pregnant and was going to come back to work full time with her husband dropping a day at his work

She was pressured to go back part time by her husband, ...bit of emotional blackmail as he believed he should be the bread winner

And to be fair to him, he probably felt a lot of pressure to be the man and provide for his family

But really it was lose lose

Women freely choose to do degrees like medicine, nursing, art, social sciences more than they do engineering degrees

Hmm. Interesting as medicine used to be seen as a potentially high earner. Until women started doing it and then it seem to lose all it's prestige.

Engineering is not considered female friendly in this country yes, but has more female recruits in Eastern Europe and other countries. All still have a pay gap though.

The fact that certain jobs generally done by women are deemed worthy of less pay at all is of course an issue in itself.

The assumption that women will be the primary carer in a family means that women as a class, whether or not they have children, are structurally disadvantaged

Have you ever given any thought to the reason why that assumption is there? The assumption is there because it's what most women will want to do.

Are you asking for women to give up their biological instincts?

Shooz, seriously, you need to google a little more neutrally. Please. You're just showing yourself up.

Women had to campaign to have the law changed that said an employer couldn't refuse to hire them on the basis that they were of childbearing age and recently married.

An employer now cannot ask that question. It doesn't stop them thinking the assumption that you also are making.

You are living proof of women's disadvantage.

Hmm. Interesting as medicine used to be seen as a potentially high earner. Until women started doing it and then it seem to lose all it's prestige

Oh come on, you actually think that people think being a Dr is a low prestige job? on what grounds?

Engineering is not considered female friendly in this country

Again, on what grounds?

Are you asking for women to give up their biological instincts?

Show me the biological instinct says women should be financially dependent upon a man?

If you want to go ahead and pay women for raising children, and at the same time give it the highest value you can, as it deserves, you go right ahead.

Also can you please answer my question upthread about how you can call yourself a radical feminist while not understand female subjugation?

Otherwise someone might think you have done the silly thing TRAs do and lumped anyone who disagrees with them as TERFs and changed the meaning of the term "radical feminist" in order to disparage women. Radical feminism has nothing to do with trans activism, it was around far before the current TRAs were even born. It doesn't define itself on males.

ah biological determinism

my favourite

Shooz
Good start with outlining some of the relevant issues.
The next step is to examine the conditions under which people make choices. For this you need some sociological theory.

You also need to explore what a 'choice' is and how freedom of choice can be influenced by social conditions. It's not necessary obvious!

Then you need to unpack your ideas about what's 'natural', being careful not to oversimplify the connections between biological processes and social structures.

You should also examine the matter of paternity: if male CEOs are often fathers, how does paternity impact on their careers?

To develop your ideas you need to read some sociology text books and other sources. You won't be able to draw legitimate conclusions until you have examined the topic in more detail.

Women weren't "naturally" predisposed to voting.

Or wearing trousers, or driving, or holding a mortgage in their name.

Women had to campaign to have the law changed that said an employer couldn't refuse to hire them on the basis that they were of childbearing age and recently married

I would politely suggest that you've just made that up, or, you're just a victim of propaganda.

ah biological determinism

To deny it's a factor is dishonest.

I'm not sure I'm in the mood for silly fuckery today. But yes, to answer your question, I've given over much time in my life to dealing with the idea that it is a female biological instinct to be the one who cooks, cleans, and cares for the children, the elderly and her husband.

I've come to the conclusion that it's a big fat lie, and it is promoted precisely because it serves the purpose of maintaining a status quo that 'feminists' like you are only too happy to uphold.

www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-preg.html USA

Equality Act Uk

Proof that it happens anyway

www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/12/managers-avoid-hiring-younger-women-maternity-leave

It is a fact that married women only recently won the right to work, in living memory.
Women also fought for the right to own property, and have a bank account. Again, in living memory.

Your ignorance is irritating. Go and check your facts instead of sneering and demanding people spoon feed you.

oops left this off www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1975/65/pdfs/ukpga_19750065_en.pdf

Show me the biological instinct says women should be financially dependent upon a man

You appear to be totally dismissing millennia of human evolution where the males tended to adopt certain roles and females tended to adopt certain roles.

When men were taking down woolly mammoths with pointy sticks do you not think they'd rather be back at the cave?

I'm quite intrigued about the biological explanation for why having a body designed to gestate live young makes it inevitable that you'll have an affinity for scrubbing toilets

Shooz This is why you should research and write the 3000 word essay on the history of the women's liberation movement in Britain! You will discover things that you wouldn't have thought possible.

I do think this sort of MRA , cough, I mean feminist. Is more useful than the SteveJobsSpecs sort as you can at least use him to respond to common misconceptions about feminism.

You can't really argue coherently with someone who says things like"men invented everything so there".