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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

"Feminism is equality"

226 replies

MrGHardy · 09/08/2018 17:06

This is a response by a woman to a man talking about feminism:

"Your understanding is wrong. Where does everyone get this idea that feminism is some kind of for-all happy umbrella? It's for the equality of women vis-a-vis men. And men, Mr. Read, don't get to decide what feminism is."

I have come across this so often recently, where feminism is portrayed as "for equality so it is also for men" etc. and this Twitter user used a good phrase: "some kind of for-all happy umbrella".

I think it's a deliberate misrepresentation of feminism, in order to distract the discussion away from the issues, away from women, and to paint women in a bad light as some sort of female supremacists if they disagree with the idea, feminism is equality for all i.e. also for men. The idea "feminism is for women does not imply it is not for equality" seems also hard for people to understand and is easily misrepresented.

How do you deal with this? If you constantly have to first convince people that feminism is not for men, not a blanket "for-all happy umbrella", it gets very frustrating and distracts from the issue at hand (and instead leads to a debate about what feminism is, and what its goals are and who it is for). Additionally, as a man you are quickly accused of mansplaining (especially by women who for some reason believe that feminism is also for men) or at least asked for a definition which is a) difficult to do for me b) at least in my case necessarily leads to accusations of mansplaining.

OP posts:

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 10/08/2018 14:08

I know.

Anyway don't we need to talk about how we arrange that whole 'murdering 2-3 men a week thing'? Just to show willing?

UpstartCrow · 10/08/2018 14:08

Unpaid labour, Datun. It's how the Empire was built.
Capitalism can see your sex just fine.

ReluctantCamper · 10/08/2018 14:11

Maybe stop saying 'subjugated' NuShooz. You're the first person on the thread to use the word.

So, leaving 'subjugated' to one side, a small sample of things that feminists are concerned about, confining myself to just things that happen in the uk as you seem to be quite the little englander:

the husband stitch

misdiagnosis of heart attacks in women due to men being the default human

the likelihood that if a woman is raped her attacker will never be punished

TheCountryGirl · 10/08/2018 14:13

Yea, funny how it is always women who make these 'choices' after slaving away at school and uni for 18 years.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 10/08/2018 14:13

I am wondering how it would work.

Do we get 'feminist' men to volunteer?

Would it be a sweepstake?

Would they get to choose how they die?

Or should we surprise them?

For real equality, I suppose it should be someone a feminist is in a relationship with for a certain percentage of the time. perhaps we should dig out figures on that.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 10/08/2018 14:26

I was thinking more like the purge incredibly

Or painting the doors with red like in the bible (id do lambs blood but im veggie)

< shit we have a red front door....makes note to buy new door>

saratustra · 10/08/2018 14:27

Oh God. Promised myself I wasn't going to post in here but well.
So, men don't have the right to fight for female liberation, because they're part of the oppressing class. Is there anything at all they can do as individuals that is right, or does the individual does not exist besides class.

"True" feminism is not about equality, but about the fight of the female experience. So a different perspective would make me an ignorant I guess. I mistrust any ideologies that claim to be the "true" something, but I possibly I don't know what I'm talking about, just have a masters in philosophy. Yes that's an arrogant statement but I feel insulted.

Biology centred theories have been used by all kinds of oppressors trough history (patriarchy for a start). They are limiting and confrontational. But having read thorough some incredibly mean threads lately, I guess confrontation is not an issue here.

Very sad indeed.

Datun · 10/08/2018 14:30

ReluctantCamper

Ugh that husband stitch link. I'd read about it before, but it wasn't on my radar. Absolutely awful.

IDontEatFriedTurtle · 10/08/2018 14:30

For the record, I'm a feminist. Probably a male Terf but a feminist nonetheless.

I don't understand how you can claim to be a radical feminist but also claim you don't know anything about female subjugation.

it's almost like you're using words whilst not understanding them at all.

Like when my toddler says, "I almost want crisps with my sandwhich".

BettyDuMonde · 10/08/2018 14:31

I’ve got a masters in fine art.

(It’s not relevant to the conversation but I rarely get the opportunity to mention it, so...)

Of course men can be feminist allies.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 10/08/2018 14:34

So, men don't have the right to fight for female liberation, because they're part of the oppressing class. Is there anything at all they can do as individuals that is right, or does the individual does not exist besides class.

Bewilderness has a list of shit that men can do.

Most times she posts it, the men tell her why they can't do it.

Ce la vie.

Cascade220 · 10/08/2018 14:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IncrediblySturdyPyjamas · 10/08/2018 14:35

I'd love to not have to be a feminist.

But the shit just keeps on coming.

Datun · 10/08/2018 14:37

Bewilderness has a list of shit that men can do.

Most times she posts it, the men tell her why they can't do it.

It does make me laugh when people wonder whether men can be feminists.

No one can stop you feministing. No one can stop you campaigning, volunteering, donating.

But that's not what the problem is, not what they mean. They just want the label. And get very annoyed if they're not given it.

IDontEatFriedTurtle · 10/08/2018 14:39

Additionally, as a man you are quickly accused of mansplaining (especially by women who for some reason believe that feminism is also for men) or at least asked for a definition which is a) difficult to do for me b) at least in my case necessarily leads to accusations of mansplaining.

Oh and re the OP I really don't see why you need to get in to a discussion with a woman ever to tell her definition of feminism is incorrect. That would be mansplaining. Many, many women do see think feminism means that. It's not my approach to feminism but we're both working towards the same aims broadly. An improvement in the world we live in for women. I haven't got time for the PFJ or the JPF nonsense.

DrNuShooz · 10/08/2018 14:40

I will answer, just have to pop out to the shops, be about half an hour or so

Back from the shops, just about to write my "why I think the reason there aren't more women CEOs is because of the life choices women make"

FloralBunting · 10/08/2018 14:54

they just want the label

Ain't that the truth, though? It's a perfect illustration of women attempting to set a boundary and men attempting to enact the patriarchy to over ride the boundary.

I always find it so liberating when a man calls himself a feminist and then tells all the women that feminism is largely pointless because not only do women have it pretty damn good now, they even choose the negatives.

Datun · 10/08/2018 14:57

FloralBunting

Very few men would be prepared to admit they don't believe in equality.

Except they don't, because when inequality is pointed out to them they don't believe it!

DrNuShooz · 10/08/2018 15:14

Currently 7% of CEOs of companies in the FTSE 100 are women. This is also the main reason why there is a gender pay gap as those top earners skew the figures. If there were more woman CEOs, the alleged pay gap would not exist. At all.

As we know, more women go to university than men. However, women don't tend to choose courses that will enable them to become a CEO of a top company. Women freely choose to do degrees like medicine, nursing, art, social sciences more than they do engineering degrees, for example. I'd like to reiterate, this is a free will choice. There is nothing to stop any woman doing any degree, not in 2018 UK anyway. They do medicine because it'what they'd like to do.

Then, some women will freely want to have a family. They will freely choose to put their career on hold and raise a family. Then a woman may choose to go back to her career or not or they may choose a different one. The instinct to raise a family is part of nature, it's not the fault of the patriarchy.

To make it to the top of a FTSE 100 company takes dedication and sacrifice, years of 80 hour weeks and constant competition from peers. Some women just freely chose NOT to enter this world, just as they freely choose not to enter the world of sewage workers or being in the infantry. They aren't being stopped from entering the CEO world because if they were, we wouldn't have any female CEOs.

So, the reason why we don't have more women as CEOs in the top 100 FTSE companies isn't because of a denial of opportunity, it's because they just don't want to.

But when they choose to, they do.

FloralBunting · 10/08/2018 15:15

Datun, yes, true. My DP, coming out of extreme patriarchal cultic stuff the same as me, works really hard to deal with his own internal assumptions.

He has come to a place where he acknowledges that I am the one best placed to talk about the issues that have affected me, and that he needs a large dollop of humility to work through the prejudices he still has.

That doesn't make him a sap, or unintelligent, or even passive. He just understands that when a woman says something is a problem, it's not 'feminist' to say, "No, that's not a problem. What about me?"

DrNuShooz · 10/08/2018 15:15

Except they don't, because when inequality is pointed out to them they don't believe it

Inequality works both ways. Some women just don't want to believe that when you point it out to them.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 10/08/2018 15:18

floral

My husband does learn...he is really not happy with the lack of representation of women in some of the meetings he goes to

And makes a point of commenting on it...it does seem to be that a societal change is needed

Datun · 10/08/2018 15:19

Inequality works both ways. Some women just don't want to believe that when you point it out to them.

Nonsense. Whatever inequality a man perceives is not the subject of feminism, though.

I can't be bothered to address your comments, they are straight out of the MRA playbook. And the main thing you're missing is why?

Why do women not choose stem subjects? Are you seriously suggesting they're not smart enough? When in countries where they are encouraged they make up the majority of the cohort.

You've done a superficial analysis based on statistics which you don't understand the reason for.

Plus women suffer in their careers whether they have children or not. The mummy penalty affects childless women, just as much.

FloralBunting · 10/08/2018 15:19

NuShooz, are you genuinely suggesting there are no structural reasons why women having a family would be a bar to business executive success? Can you not see the assumption that women will be the primary carer, for example, is part of the patriarchal system that prevents women from doing those things?

Datun · 10/08/2018 15:20

My husband does learn

A few weeks ago DH turned to me and said is it me, or are the films we are watching getting more sexist?

I just said nope.

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