Julie Burchill on Brighton transpride and nonbinary affectation

[2rebecca]

Will post link below as can't remember how to do it when starting threads. I heard she was at the recent Women's Place event in Brighton, she mentions it but wrote this before the event. Would be interesting to hear what she thought of that too. I love a bit of Julie Burchill. Totally agree with her.

Julie Burchill is one of the most talented writers this country has ever produced, and I love hearing her speak too. She is sharp.

the Violet Elizabeth Bott Tendency

Keep up the good work, JB.

Love her.

And she is one of the very few successful journos from a genuinely working class background, who gets it culturally. That's working class, not bohemian poor looking at you Caitlin Moran or patronising middle class tourists like Owen Jones. So there!

Excellent piece. I love Julie - she's really fighting our corner with reason and wit.

Brilliant, Julie

She’s proper aces.

Her doesn’tgiveashit-ness is inspirational.

Loving the comments underneath too.

That was totally marvellous.

While we’re at it, I don’t understand why B is included – what’s oppressive about having twice the chance to pull? I’ve got beef with the G, too. While I understand that the plight of homosexuals is shocking in other – mostly Muslim, though sometimes black Christian – nations, in this country homosexuality is not only legal but practically mandatory in the most remunerative, enjoyable and easy of professions.

I thoroughly disagree with this part of the article. It's very minimising and dismissive of the oppression that both bisexual and gay people still face even in countries where homosexuality is legal.

I always read Julie Burchill with my stomach muscles braced because I expect a metaphorical punch to my gut - what have I done wrong now? I never brace my stomach muscles. Julie speaks for me and to me

I did hear the David Sadaris piece she alluded to though and agree that white gay males seem to do OK in media and arty professions and with the trendiness of "diversity" in many organisations it can be another way of selecting white middle class males and ignoring women, ditto white middle class males who identify as women. The media certainly has more lefty middle class white male homosexuals than there are in the general population. Sometimes "diversity" reduces diversity.

2rebecca

I think you are right there

The media certainly has more lefty middle class white male homosexuals than there are in the general population

Academia too. Literally 50% of the men in my department are gay. So it all looks very open and diverse, except we have massive issues with the way in which women are treated in terms of workload, types of tasks allocated, promotion, etc.

Sometimes "diversity" reduces diversity.

Sometimes seeing the truth written down almost prompts me to tears.

That's true but the way she worded it makes it sound as if gay men in western countries have no reason to complain because homosexuality is legal and they have representation in certain industries. It's like saying women shouldn't complain about sexism because we're protected against discrimination under the equality act and we're represented in teaching and nursing. I just found it very minimising and dismissive of the struggles that gay people still go through; and don't even get me started on her saying that bisexual people are never oppressed and therefore don't need to be included

She's bisexual though. I think she didn't think in modern western societies being bisexual is necessarily a disadvantage. Many bisexuals don't talk about it or see it as the most important thing about them.
I do think lesbians are far less visible in society and are judged more. (Not pretty enough, too pretty, no make up, too much make up, too butch, too feminine) in a way gay men arent.

Lesbians being discriminated against more than gay men isn't an excuse to minimise the homophobia they face in western countries though. I just dislike the way she has suggested that they have nothing to complain about; what's the need for her to dismiss the idea that gay men are still oppressed in western countries? And any bisexual person in a same sex relationship is as likely to be oppressed as any other same sex couple.

Opressed by whom?

You can't think of a single way that gay men are oppressed in today's society?
Homosexuality is legal and they're represented in some industries therefore gay men are no longer oppressed and should just stop whining about equality.

Does any of that sound familiar?

I see you haven't answered the question, which doesn't surprise me. I accept working class gay white men in the UK may face bigotry but am less convinced about middle class homosexual men. Owen Jones doesn't seem very oppressed

I see you haven't answered the question, which doesn't surprise me. I accept working class gay white men in the UK may face bigotry but am less convinced about middle class homosexual men. Owen Jones doesn't seem very oppressed

With Owen Jones as an example, he has faced many online homophobic insults which he's spoken about before. He probably hasn't had much worse, but this is most likely a result of him being both white and middle class(as you said working class gay men face more discrimination and LGBT PoC often face more discrimination as well).

Other examples of discrimination:
-Recent studies show two thirds of LGBT people fear holding hands in public(this probably disproportionately affects men as straight girls show affection in public all the time; that being said I'm not trying to say that lesbians don't face hate for this but it probably happens to men more)
-the idea that 'camp' gay men are not 'real' men, often mocked, called girly(also this is the stereotype placed on gay men)
-homophobia in sport(dominant in men's football)
-the idea that two men cannot be good parents/are 'damaging' their child(not talking about the surrogacy debate here just about generally)
-general hate crime(Orlando shooting if you need an example)

Honestly, the fact that you don't even think gay men are oppressed in today's society astounds me.

Compare not being able to hold hands in public to not being allowed to speak the truth in public, without attracting death / rape threats and run the risk of losing your job and / or being investigated by the police.
That’s a woman’s lot, in these enlightened times.
Oppression? Yes.

I never said or insinuated that men are oppressed as much as women

I had a problem with the article which suggested that as homosexuality is legal and gay men are represented in some creative industries, gay men no longer face oppression in today's society and that there is somehow a problem with gay men speaking about the discrimination they face.

OP also suggested that gay men are not oppressed in modern society and asked me to come up with examples. I gave some examples of struggles that gay men have in society. I'm not trying to play the who has it worst game, I just had a problem with that part of the article.

@tacolover you still didn't answer @2rebecca's question: who oppresses gay men? I'll give you a clue: it's the same people who oppress lesbians and are mentioned in the following paragraph as agents of abuse.

I've had men throw verbal abuse and open cans of drink at me and my then-gf for daring to hold hands, so I can assure you that lesbophobic abuse happens and can be physical.

This is a good article. I love JB’s writing. (and I’m going to politely ignore that it’s published on Spiked Online who write some daft stuff on other FWR issues.)