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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surprise! The Masons now welcome Transwomen but not women

110 replies

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 07:53

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6013141/Freemasons-break-tradition-allow-women-join-brotherhood-born-male.html

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womanspeaking · 01/08/2018 08:28

Stamps foot - but if TWAW then they shouldn't be eligible. Cake and eating it over and over and over again.

Not that I care - the freemasons have a very toxic reputation.

R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 08:33

I think you’re missing the point. The issue is that women are not permitted, that is what we should be fighting about. But spend your energy trying to get trans women disallowed if you really can’t see the bigger picture here.

There is a bigger picture yes, a much bigger one involving:

power / abuse of power
free speech
political process
safeguarding & child protection
women's rights

Hideandgo · 01/08/2018 08:34

Transgender women are real women and have now been permitted to the Masons. No reason why all women shouldn’t be permitted.

CanineEnigma · 01/08/2018 08:41

Here's a share token for the Times article www.thetimes.co.uk/article/freemasons-to-admit-women-if-they-first-joined-as-men-n6mrqm6zl?shareToken=10392bb4573703ea4a72e9bbe496ee52

Open to all, unless you're a woman who doesn't claim to be a man.

TimeLady · 01/08/2018 08:42

The Times understands that a senior judge, who is a Freemason, was asked to look into the legal implications of gender reassignment before a possible relaxation of the law. As a single-sex association, lodges are exempt from sexual discrimination legislation on admissions criteria but discrimination against members is a different issue.

Under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010 a man who has joined the Freemasons cannot be excluded after becoming a woman because gender reassignment is a protected characteristic.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/freemasons-to-admit-women-if-they-first-joined-as-men-n6mrqm6zl

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:43

Hideandgo - it's a male only club, which is why TW are allowed entry.

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Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:45

Thanks Canine - looking forward to reading comments on this later.

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CanineEnigma · 01/08/2018 08:45

it's a male only club, which is why TW are allowed entry

Honestly, the cognitive dissonance is outstanding. Surely that's some sort of a transphobic policy, because we're all meant to go along with TWAW. In theory it would be "outing" in the extreme to be a TW in the Freemasons under this policy too - everyone would know why they're the only person in a skirt there.

Bowlofbabelfish · 01/08/2018 08:49

spend your energy trying to get trans women disallowed if you really can’t see the bigger picture here.

No the bigger picture is that the ONLY people who can’t join are actual women.

Oh and the tiny, tiny slightly worrying fact that this person is lobbying to remove any woman only spaces in the entire city of London, including public loos and Hampstead ponds.

So says they are non binary, but no, you nasty ladies can’t join my den, and byvthe way you can’t have any safe spaces either.

If you can’t see that’s worrying, especially in the light of how this week another high profile campaigner for removing women’s safe spaces has been allegedly caught flashing and with a blog full of rape and invest and dick pics (allegedly) then I suggest it’s you who cannot see thevbig picture.

The big picture is a concerted drive to remove all women’s rights and safe spaces. And remove child safeguarding principles.

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:50

Actually women are permitted to attend two Lodges. So wonder why TW don't want to go there? Or maybe they will demand it
Yes. Whilst UGLE, following the example of medieval stonemasons, is, and has always been, restricted to men, women Freemasons have two separate Grand Lodges, which are restricted to women.

For more information, please contact the Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons [HFAF] and the Order of Women Freemasons [OWF].

Are there women freemasons?
**Yes. Whilst UGLE, following the example of medieval stonemasons, is, and has always been, restricted to men, women Freemasons have two separate Grand Lodges, which are restricted to women.

For more information, please contact the Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons [HFAF] and the Order of Women Freemasons [OWF].**

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Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:50

www.ugle.org.uk/about-freemasonry/frequently-asked-questions

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R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 08:52

Seems there are a lot of exceptions to the laws and they all benefit one group of biology specimens. I didn't know this. So refuges and birth centres etc where wlmen are vulnerable are not specifically excluded in law but places where men have power, money and prstige as well as play silly games are all protected.

2015 Guardian Article by Amelia Gentleman
'Time, gentlemen: when will the last all-male clubs admit women?'

www.theguardian.com/news/2015/apr/30/time-gentlemen-when-will-last-all-male-clubs-admit-women
(extracts)
"Just before one o’clock on a Tuesday lunchtime last summer, about 30 men and three women were mingling at the bar of the Garrick Club in London’s theatre district. The broadcaster Jeremy Paxman was leaning back on a low sofa, chatting with a young man (in this context, young means under 50). Michael Gove, the Conservative chief whip, was surrounded by a small cluster of men. After a while, Paxman stood up to say hello to Gove; they talked for a moment, laughing. Shortly after, everyone – among them a former warden of Wadham College, Oxford, and a senior adviser to the government on privatisation – made their way out of the bar for lunch....

A few remain unrepentant about their men-only status. With the exception of the Queen, women are never allowed past the front door of White’s, London’s most aristocratic club. David Cameron’s father was chairman here, but Cameron decided to resign when he became leader of the Conservative party. (His stated view 18 months ago on all-male clubs was that they “look more to the past than they do to the future”.)

When I called Pratt’s Club to ask whether women were admitted, the friendly steward (a woman) explained that they were not, with a logic that wasn’t entirely easy to follow: “They still don’t allow women in because it is a supper club; we only open at seven at night. Only at private lunches – women are allowed then – as we do the lunches on a different floor.” She did not explain why seven is too late for women to venture out, or if there is a reason why women must have lunch on a different floor. At the Turf Club, the person who answered the phone would not confirm whether or not women are admitted (they aren’t), and promptly hung up.

Still, the question of reform does surface from time to time. In 2012, at the annual general meeting of the Travellers Club, members debated a modest proposal to allow “lady heads of some diplomatic missions in London to be accorded honorary membership for the duration of their tenure”. International diplomats and ambassadors use the club’s facilities, occasioning some members’ embarrassment that female ambassadors from around the world are not able to join along with their junior male colleagues. The motion was, however, firmly rejected." (continues)

When the last Labour government drafted the 2010 Equality Act, there was some discussion of how the legislation could be used to make these clubs illegal, but this proved impossible. The legislation settled on banning clubs from excluding people on the basis of colour, but allowed them to continue rejecting women. Vera Baird, who as Labour’s solicitor general was involved in drafting the legislation, says: “We obviously looked with bared teeth at the prospect of getting rid of them [all-male gentlemen’s clubs].” However, very quickly they saw that this could not be done without also forcing a parallel ban of women’s swimming clubs or gay choirs.

Politically it was a disappointment. “Obviously you hope that an equality act is going to be able to root out inequality. As long as men are still the power brokers, having exclusive clubs just for them is going to boost that position again and again; if you allow men to recruit to their own private clubs they can continue to share that power amongst themselves, or not to share it.”

The appearance of new equalities legislation did make it illegal for the Garrick to make some areas of the club off limits to women. It is now illegal for the club to dictate that seats at the central table are just for men. Members were told about the impact of the legislation, but advised (according to a reformist member who asked not to be named) that “‘members may take women there, but the expectation is that they would feel very out of place and therefore we would advise not to bring them’. It worked – you rarely see a woman at that table."

Amelia Gentleman is the award-winning journalist who did a great deal of investigation into the Windrush scandals (also married to Jo Johnson)

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:54

Call me cyncical, but guessing Teddy boy Lord wants to keep all his male privilege by remaining in the old boys' Masons (because he knows he's a man) and has pushed for new rules to justify his 'dilema'

If he believes TWAW and their is a female lodge why isn't he demanding they budge up as he does with London loos?

I would be interested to hear from the female masons.

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Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:55

There is...
Dilemma

Twitter has done this!

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BigGreenOlives · 01/08/2018 08:56

TWAW unless they’d rather be men. I wonder whether IW would go to the Garrick?

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 01/08/2018 08:57

Top prize for spectacular point missing goes to Hideandgo!

Transwomen are demonstrably not real women or they couldn't join the Masons. They are allowed because their biological male sex permits them, in law, access to single sex male spaces.

We are commenting on the hypocrisy, we are not desperate to join a club that involves standing on one leg wearing an apron and a pair of gloves with a sword pointed at us. I get enough of that from my 8 year old when I'm cooking and he attacks me with a light sabre.

Interesting isn't it, that these men who identify into oppression, still want to maintain privilege? Meanwhile very young and confused girls are booted out of the guides to make way for boys in skirts who may still grow up to be Masons.

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 08:58

R0wan At the Turf Club

I'm already a member according to Twitter Grin

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R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 08:59

Open to all, unless you're a woman who doesn't claim to be a man.

Not claim, this is not like AWS, Jo Cox Women's Leadership program etc.

Transmen must have had reassignment surgery.

No #ManFridaying here.

Should Philip / Pips Bunce wish to join (or continue membership as a Freemason) no problem though now I'm curious to know if Pips Bunce could also attend one of the two (?) women's lodges as well as the male-only lodge.
*hypothetically of course

Indierockandroll · 01/08/2018 09:01

Yes, why stick to just one designated lodge when you can also infiltrate the women's space?

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Needmoresleep · 01/08/2018 09:09

This will not help.

The number of women going through surgical gender re-asignment and who want to, and are invited to, become Masons must be vanishingly small.

But the Masons are allowed to show how modern and liberal they are by allowing natal-men who identify as women to remain masons. As long as they are not so precious as to object to being called "brother".

Ergo it is perfectly ok, as the current survey promoted by Edward Lord suggests (top prize for the most biased and leading public survey ever) that it is fine for City of London primary school girls to have to share public toilets (say in the Barbican Centre), swimming changing rooms etc with men identifying as women, formal gender reassignment or not.

CanineEnigma · 01/08/2018 09:18

Transmen must have had reassignment surgery. Well yeah, but biological sex, "adult human male/female" etc.

I was under the impression that part of the protection for gender reassignment under the EA is that you're not supposed to ask for proof of the gender reassignment? Why are the Freemasons allowed to question the motives of transmen but women aren't allowed to do the same to transwomen?

UpstartCrow · 01/08/2018 09:19

I don't think they are permitted to check to see is someone has had surgery.

R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 09:24

I wonder if Dan Brown has started writing / got his researching teams mobilised yet?

R0wantrees · 01/08/2018 09:28

I don't think they are permitted to check to see is someone has had surgery.

This is the point that I have heard most priminant TRAs make during interviews eg Jane Fae, Munroe Bergdorf, Paris Lees etc etc

I was just thinking that someone really should ask Stephen Whittle about this Freemasons policy.

He may also be able to unpick the apparent contradictory advice and policies of the Girl Guides and the Freemasons.

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 01/08/2018 09:32

I think that’s good - shows transwomen are men.

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