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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jess Bradley, suspended - Part II

999 replies

LaSquirrel · 30/07/2018 14:00

I thought I would kick off a part II
Part I is here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320513-Jess-Bradley-first-transgender-student-officer-suspended-after-flashing-photos

OP posts:
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TimeLady · 02/08/2018 17:10

And you are very welcome, Ninon.

Mxyzptlk · 02/08/2018 17:12

@Agastache, how does it help to give a sarky comment to someone who is peak-transing?
Posters on MN frequently comment that most of the population has no idea what is going on.

mrnohips · 02/08/2018 17:14

Mrnohips - the internet is awash with photos and cartoons of men with huge breasts and erect penises. It has convinced me that for a lot of transwomen, identifying as trans has a lot to do with fetish and very little to do with dysphoria.

Ugh, no wonder so many men want to hang on to their bits.

Agastache · 02/08/2018 17:19

@Agastache, how does it help to give a sarky comment to someone who is peak-transing?

Well, bloody great that people are peak transing.

Sorry for being pissed off that Ninon was so dismayed at the feminists - up until now.

Dismayed. Fucks sake. As if we were just pissing up a wall because we could. This is about the total dissolution of the concept of 'women'.

mrnohips · 02/08/2018 17:20

The best course for the trans community and trans-supporting politicians is to start over, from a premise based on reality. Men are not women. When they feminize themselves, whether medically or only through changes in style, what threatens them is not “transmisogyny” but homophobia. If the trans community were to launch a major campaign against homophobic violence and discrimination, and feminists will join, as will the gays and lesbians the trans community have alienated.

The reality is, women will not accept men as women. We simply will not. Because the reality of womanhood is too much with us, from an early age — in the material reality of our own blood, our fertility, and male aggression against us. We have, on an honor system, accepted the polite fiction of transsexual women. But the male-entitled demand that we accept any man as woman, simply on his say-so, is an example of reality asserting itself: men are not women, and they prove that in the very act of demanding, and attempting to force, women to bow to male conceit.

This is one of the best things I've read on this issue.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 02/08/2018 17:26

Here here mrn

FloralBunting · 02/08/2018 17:29

Agastache, totally get where you're coming from, it is maddening to have been pointing this out to blank looks for so long, but peaking is peaking and should be welcomed however late in the day Smile

Agastache · 02/08/2018 17:32

Well, enjoy MN whilst you can - as they are coming for the host of this forum once the consultation is over, and they will shut it down.

Whichever side of history we are on.

Ninon · 02/08/2018 17:32

@Agastache I did not say that I was dismayed at feminists, I said that I was dismayed at the disagreement. I think that there are many people like me who were initially baffled and saddened by the dispute that erupted on social media.

Anyway, I will bow out now but will carry on looking for ways to oppose the change. I am work in the City of London and have filled in their consultation today and have a friend who has been invited to speak on a panel on the topic of self-id and will also bend her ear on the subject.

Best wishes to you all.

TransplantsArePlants · 02/08/2018 17:34

Atreides

This

There are still a lot of people out there who are bought into the mantra of the trans community being victimised

And this:

The issue is they don't fully understand what the trans umbrella encapsulates

These two things are the biggest barriers to well-meaning people who don't want to appear bigoted in their understanding of why feminists are upset

AND

The fact that TAs are asking for self ID with no requirement for any surgery

nauticant · 02/08/2018 17:35

I couldn't give a toss how "late" people are in coming to a realisation that uncritically agreeing to the demands of trans activists is a very bad idea.

All I want is for the facts to get out there and for people to make up their minds aware of what's being demanded and where it might take us.

Agastache · 02/08/2018 17:36

Bow out? Jesus.

Stay and fight if you believe in it.

R0wantrees · 02/08/2018 17:37

Ninon
A lot of people trying to get their heads around the wider issues have found this thread useful (there are a lot of good links which may help your conversations with friends)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

nauticant · 02/08/2018 17:38

As far as I'm concerned Ninon you're welcome and it's good to see you here.

Janie143 · 02/08/2018 17:40

I wonder if Penny Mordaunt is having a bit of a think now The adoption of the Yoguatawa principles could do with a review too

OrchidInTheSun · 02/08/2018 17:41

Stick around Ninon

TransplantsArePlants · 02/08/2018 17:41

Yes, me too.

I have posted the patently bleeding obvious many many times just to get my own thinking straight. I am relatively new to this too. I am sure it's frustrated a few people

AtreidesFreeWoman · 02/08/2018 17:42

@TransplantsArePlants

Yes I agree with you.

The whole "transphobia" label is thrown like shit at a wall to make sure some of it sticks.

It's only when you start looking at whose "muck spreading" that you start to realise that most are simply re-cycling their own excrement.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 02/08/2018 17:43

perhaps can't deal with the "alpha maleneness

I see repeated evidence of toxic masculinity having had a big role in causing this massive swell of identity crises. Men transitioning in late teens and adulthood having had no childhood dysphoria are very often men who would have been the bottom of the pecking order amongst other men and would have suffered self esteem issues around meeting those standards/ competing for girlfriends/ dealing with all the deluge of imagery around what men and women should look like. They never challenge men, no matter what those men do, but radiate a powerful belief that they are a superior class to biological women and have the right to dictate to them, be in charge and demand service (and sex in some cases.) . It's all about the power hierarchy, the man kicks the cat so the cat bites the rat and the rat bites the fleas etc.

A transman colleague has very strong internalised views about the inferiority of women: for example perceives all male staff as superior and of higher authority than female staff, even if they are in the same or higher managerial roles. At gut level, they believe women are less than men. Their transition followed child abuse and heavy anxiety, it's not difficult to see why they wanted to escape being a woman who has no power and no authority, and to be one of the people in life who is safer, has power, has authority, has control. Although sadly they demonstrate constantly that inside they still perceive themselves as lesser than and owing loyalty and service to males. Transition is doing very little to make them any happier.

BraveAndStunning · 02/08/2018 17:49

the internet is awash with photos and cartoons of men with huge breasts and erect penises.

It is, and despite trying to avoid it, I can't help coming across them. I wonder if putting them on a thread with clear trigger warnings would be an idea. It does help accelarate the peak trans process when you witness of un-dysphoric these men are

TimeLady · 02/08/2018 17:50

I have posted the patently bleeding obvious many many times just to get my own thinking straight.

Oh, me too.

Ninon (and any other lurkers), please don't be discouraged from posting or reading here. I only found this Mumsnet board via a Spectator link - even if you know it's here, it's not that easy to find, hidden away in the menu choices.

AtreidesFreeWoman · 02/08/2018 17:52

And yes @Ninon - stick around :-)

Some of us have been here for quite a while and at times can feel quite battle weary - I've been there myself.

Once the scales have fallen from your eyes it's hard at times to remember when you also were blind, as it were.

BirthCanal · 02/08/2018 17:56

Salient points timelady

Agastache · 02/08/2018 17:59

and any other lurkers, please don't be discouraged from posting or reading here.

Yes but please bear in mind that risks that women that have gone before you have put themselves and their families under - some have put their lives on the line, their jobs, careers, have faced up to masked men, attended meetings that have been threatened with bombs, stood up in court - in order to talk about this, make videos about this, and generally keep the evidence of the toxicity of men at the top of the agenda.

BettyDuMonde · 02/08/2018 18:03

Ninon

Your experience seems similar to mine - those of us who have beloved transfolk in our lives have taken longer to realise what’s been going on - I didn’t want to engage with any of it - even reading something gender critical made me feel like I was betraying people I care about.

Then my autistic son came home from 6th form saying he’d been called a bigot and a transphobe - he didn’t get why and was quite distressed. I was surprised because he’s been bought up in a pretty counter-culture environment and has no problem accepting difference. We are not a judgemental family (his favourite baby photo is him in the arms of Lemmy Kilmister) his ‘oh my god’ parents are lesbians. One of my (3rd) husband’s best friends is a transwoman. I live 5 doors away from my previous husband and his partner and my daughter, his half sister, subsequently has 4 parents at every school event. All 4 of those parents are completely tattooed. My son’s friends try and get invited over just so they can see his weirdo family.

I figured he must’ve gotten the wrong end of the stick somewhere, so I asked him to tell me what he’d actually said, whilst mentally preparing to give him the ‘sex and gender are different, sex is material and how mammals make babies, gender is a bunch of social constructs that society uses to keep people stuck in little boxes. Some people have a condition known as gender dysphoria and they find the best way of treating it is to take some of the stuff out of the boxes that society has designated for the opposite sex - some take medications and have surgeries to appear more like the opposite sex (y’know, like your stepdad’s friend Ms X) and we accept those people with kindness and don’t make a big deal about it etc etc’
Anyway, it turned out that his understanding of sex and gender was just like mine, and it was precisely that that had caused him to be ostracised as a ‘transphobe’.

So off I went, down the rabbit hole of the internet, where I discovered up was now down and Transwomen ARE biologically female and ladydick was now an actual thing...

And I felt like the guiltiest of shits because MY transfriends aren’t like that at all. But here I was, peaktransing whether I wanted to or not. And then the very same day that cancer research called me a ‘cervix haver’ I got a letter from the geneticists department saying the woman’s cancer that killed my mother was caused by a gene fault and it was 50/50 as to wether as to if I have it, depending on which of my mum’s 2 X chromosomes I got...

And then I went on twitter and saw a ‘non binary AFAB’ person say they would rather ‘die of cancer than be misgendered’.

And that’s when I made contact with radfems.

Since then, I’ve learned that many transsexuals are also anti self ID and opposed to the current trans ideology and some are speaking out and getting just as much shit for it as us (banned 4 letter acronym that denotes we should die in a fire) so I no longer feel like a guilty shit.

Right now we need to ensure that women and children are properly safeguarded and prevent loopholes that allow sex offenders like JB to get into damaging positions.

Once that’s done I will happily help campaign for more unisex facilities, better training for health care workers dealing with trans patients and appropriate elder care for trans seniors - y’know, the kind of stuff that trans people are currently being let down on.

If that makes me (and my autistic kid) transphobes, so be it.