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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

City of London Corporation consultation is out (this covers Hampstead Ponds)

272 replies

SwearyG · 26/07/2018 10:20

And it's awful

No mention of sex, no mention of impact on any stakeholders, all leading questions, and horrible clear intention to filter.

This will affect the wonderful space at Hampstead Ponds so I urge you all to complete it. I will be speaking to the Corporation about its clear bias and lack of adherence to guidelines.

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Wanderabout · 27/07/2018 00:25

Was actually worse.

The current GRA consultation is not far off but does at least ask about impact on other protected characteristics.

Ereshkigal · 27/07/2018 00:40

Yes Eresh the guidance suggests doing one. To think it’s not necessary is insane.

Angry

I was also told that the language and specifically “assigned at birth” was self explanatory and acceptable.

It really isn't. It's pomo speak which average less silly people don't use or understand.

miri1985 · 27/07/2018 00:41

It's fucking genius really when you think about it, All hail Edward Lord, grand master of the MRAs

We need not have worried, Ed has concerns as a "feminist" about the whole thing but thats not going to stop him enjoying himself for a few years while thinking it over and inventing new words like "ethicacy" (which I'm taking to be a portmanteau of ethics and efficacy)

"As a feminist, the ethicacy of that position inevitably troubles me, as it does in respect of any organisation that defines who may become members by means of gender or other arbitrary distinction. For me the balancing test has always been whether I feel the positive benefits of Freemasonry – be they social, charitable, or more ethereal through its moral teachings – outweigh the disbenefits of its arbitrary segregation by gender. This is a question which will undoubtedly vex me for many years to come. Hopefully, one day, I might be able to fully answer it. In the meantime, I will carry on enjoying Freemasonry as my hobby and as a means through which I socialise with some of my friends, whilst hopefully doing a bit of good for charity and wider society." edwardlord.org/2016/04/28/diversity-champion-it-is-time-for-me-to-come-out-i-am-a-freemason/

I also found this interesting and thought others might too reclaimec1.wordpress.com/2018/06/14/edward-lord-the-city-of-london-and-freemasonry/

Ereshkigal · 27/07/2018 00:41

As in it would be relevant if we were talking about certain disorders of sex development. But we aren't.

Ereshkigal · 27/07/2018 00:48

As an allegedly fair man committed to equality and social justice, the ethicacy of having my cake and also eating it deeply troubles me. However cake is made for eating and I feel the balance is in favour of me eating it. The positive benefits of also having a cake are clear to see, but I agree that this is a question that will vex me for some time to come. Hopefully, some day I might be able to answer. In the meantime I will enjoy the cake I am eating now. And hang onto the cake I have. And I will have yours too thanks. You don't appreciate it enough.

Ereshkigal · 27/07/2018 01:56

With thanks to miri1985, if it wasn't clear!

Oscarino · 27/07/2018 04:42

As an allegedly fair man committed to equality and social justice, the ethicacy of having my cake and also eating it deeply troubles me. However cake is made for eating and I feel the balance is in favour of me eating it. The positive benefits of also having a cake are clear to see, but I agree that this is a question that will vex me for some time to come. Hopefully, some day I might be able to answer. In the meantime I will enjoy the cake I am eating now. And hang onto the cake I have. And I will have yours too thanks. You don't appreciate it enough.

My god this just perfectly sums up every ‘woke’, misogynist, self-identified ‘feminist’, ‘yay! I get to call woman cunts in a good cause’ fuckwit who has jumped on this TRA bandwagon.

I can just see their smug faces and hear their self satisfied pompous voices 🤬🤯

Pywife2 · 27/07/2018 05:02

I filled in the pop quiz although I'm not a user of these services because I pointed out that the City of London will set a precedent that others will follow, so the outcome affects everyone in the UK.
Did my best to highlight the bias of the questions and pointed out that sex is the protected characteristic, but my guess is that anything written in the comments boxes will be ignored, and the questions are blatantly skewed to give a particular set of answers. The alternative to answering the trick questions is not to take part, so the whole thing has been constructed to silence dissenting voices and give a mandate to a course of action they've already decided on.
This survey is so blatantly biased and ignores UK law, it should be taken down and replace by a genuine consultation, as people have been saying on Twitter.

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 06:52

Procrastinator1 mentioned above thread Edward Lord is a freemason googled it and Lord seems fairly high up (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lord) in this exclusively male organisation.

Alfred Belpaire tweet comment:
"Edward Lord OBE is "NONBINARY".
Yet he is a Grand Officer and Chairman of the Universities Scheme of the United Grand Lodge of England which recruits MEN ONLY"

twitter.com/AlfredBelpaire/status/1022621390464278528

link from thread:
edwardlord.org/2016/04/28/diversity-champion-it-is-time-for-me-to-come-out-i-am-a-freemason/

is it naive of me to want to see the diversity and equality policy of the freemasons?

I am also curious to know if (as it seems statistically possible) a freemason transitioned, would they (as per the Girl Guides) be encouraged to leave the all-male society? Or is Freemasonary more accomodating of gender identity, allowing transwomen to continue to contribute and play an active role in this this single sex society?

Might The Freemasons demonstrate a more progressive embrace of male gender identities than some might expect?

City of London Corporation consultation is out (this covers Hampstead Ponds)
R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 07:04

Guardian Article February 2018 by Dawn Foster:
'Secret Freemasons should have no place in public life'

"It seems almost retro to be talking about Freemasons again, but after two alarming reports there is light on their darkness again. First, over the new year there was an allegation from retiring Police Federation chair Steve White that freemasonry was blocking reform within the force, preventing women and black officers progressing professionally. And this weekend saw a report that two lodges set up to recruit at the Palace of Westminster are continuing to operate: one established for members of parliament and staff in the Commons and Lords, and the second for political journalists."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/05/freemasons-masons

Anlaf · 27/07/2018 07:40

That freemasonry "coming out" post R0wan links to is quite something.

Today though, I have decided to ‘come out’ and be clear to friends, colleagues, and anyone else who is interested: I am a Freemason and have been for twenty-two years.

I was introduced to the Craft, as it is widely known, by my step grandfather, an active Mason in Lincolnshire, and then by a number of friends who, like me, were involved in politics. The values espoused by Freemasonry chimed with my own – Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth, or as they are now perhaps better expressed: integrity, kindness, honesty, and fairness.
(yes let's just pretend the Brotherly bit means all people, including minorities such as women)

As a feminist, [emphasis mine] the ethicacy of that position inevitably troubles me, as it does in respect of any organisation that defines who may become members by means of gender or other arbitrary distinction. For me the balancing test has always been whether I feel the positive benefits of Freemasonry – be they social, charitable, or more ethereal through its moral teachings – outweigh the disbenefits of its arbitrary segregation by gender. This is a question which will undoubtedly vex me for many years to come. Hopefully, one day, I might be able to fully answer it. In the meantime, I will carry on enjoying Freemasonry as my hobby and as a means through which I socialise with some of my friends, whilst hopefully doing a bit of good for charity and wider society.

GALAXY BRAIN is Edward Lord attempting penance for his membership of the arbitrariliy gender segregated Freemasons, by removing gender segregation everywhere else?

I love the "yea well it's troubling isn't it this excluding women from power but "in the meantime, I will carry on enjoying Freemasonry as my hobby and as a means through which I socialise with some of my friends"

Anlaf · 27/07/2018 07:45

(btw if you mention Freemasons on mn you sometimes see influx of posters saying how wonderful and inclusive to women they are)

So if you can be non-binary but be a member (nay Grand Officer) of Edward Lord's lodge.... If a non binary woman were to join, they would welcome her with open, Brotherly arms?

MacaroonMama · 27/07/2018 07:53

Ereshkigal PMSL at your cake answer. Excellent.

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 07:57

So if you can be non-binary but be a member (nay Grand Officer) of Edward Lord's lodge.... If a non binary woman were to join, they would welcome her with open, Brotherly arms?

But we don't know if the lodge policy for new members is based on sex or gender... and that would be an interesting thing to know!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/07/2018 08:04

I may have taken a very jocular tone and outlined how very silly they were being Smile

And then taken them to task for such a poorly written consultation with such obvious desired outcomes.

And yes, I too told them all about the birds and the bees!

Procrastinator1 · 27/07/2018 08:27

The hypocrisy of Lord is outrageous.

Didn't he give a radio interview which was thought to be highly partisan about this not so long ago?

So a highly privileged white male succeeds with the help of a club only open to men and seeks to stop women having access to single sex spaces, particularly impacting poor women, or women from some ethnic backgrounds.

I hope that the ridiculous consultation shines a bit of a light on the workings of the Corporation and the sex ratio of its officers and councilmen or whatever they are called and the guilds and the influence of the now "so open Masons". I think a transwoman can be a Mason, but not a natal woman or trans man. Is that correct?

The CofL are probably one of the only municipal authorities who could afford to add facilities to include a third space or unisex one to help with this issue, but this is not even on the table.

Bowlofbabelfish · 27/07/2018 08:29

I spoke to someone at the CoL today. They’re “working on” accessibility. They don’t think an equality impact assessment is necessary or required.

Get that in writing. For the first poor sod who is assaulted in the loos, changing rooms or previously safe spaces of our brave new world. So she can sue the everliving fuck out of them.

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 08:33

Didn't he give a radio interview which was thought to be highly partisan about this not so long ago?

Procrastinator1

Yes he gave a couple of BBC interviews about Hampstead Pools and also (I believe) about the Govt consultation on GRA)

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 08:34

I think a transwoman can be a Mason, but not a natal woman or trans man. Is that correct?

I think this is a very important question!

Procrastinator1 · 27/07/2018 08:34

Thanks R0wantrees, the beginning of the long list of why the consultation could be challenged in the courts.

Ereshkigal · 27/07/2018 08:43

Thanks MacaroonMama Smile

Bowlofbabelfish · 27/07/2018 08:58

I foresee a glorious future in which the only single sex space is the Masons... 🤦🏻‍♀️

Still it goes nicely with the peerage exemptions eh? And the inheritance ones...

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 09:25

Bowl

We were recently discussing opportunities for non-binary transwomen who are sexually attracted to females on the thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3314307-Why-we-need-representation-from-women-and-why-a-Labour-Women-s-Officer-is-proving-that-transwomen-don-t-represent-women

SlothSlothSloth comment:
"A non-binary transwoman who was attracted to females could stand for trans officer, LGBT+ officer and Women's Officer.

Exactly. This is what the new interpretation of intersectionality is all about - maximising the number of marginalised groups one straight, white, middle-class male can dominate at once."

Could it also be possible that a male-born non-binary transwoman might also retain patrilineal inheritance rights and membership of single sex Masonic lodges?

SwearyG · 27/07/2018 09:43

On it Bowl - have sent some strongly worded letters and emails over the last few days.

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