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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hampstead Ponds again

23 replies

WoodrowWilson · 11/07/2018 22:18

www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/environment/kenwood-ladies-pond-city-of-london-to-create-inclusive-gender-policy-1-5602815

Strange that it only mentions the Ladies Pond....

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 11/07/2018 22:19

There is already a fucking unisex pond!

OvaHere · 11/07/2018 22:27

Back to the men's pond then.

I'm sure all the gay guys that use it won't mind because obviously the men's pond is going to be inclusive too. (They will probably try to fly that one under the radar but I expect ManFriday will be good and ready to remind all the non women in that pool that they have to budge up too)

UpstartCrow · 11/07/2018 22:28

So 3 unisex ponds.
And some women won't be able to use any of them.

TheFemaleGaze · 11/07/2018 22:33

Well if that is the case I'll no longer be swimming there. Lovely as it is, I mostly valued the women-only policy, the privacy and the seclusion of it. I feel extremely uncomfortable in any setting that requires me to strip down in the same space as others for reasons I won't discuss here. The Ladies Pond was a safe place. With the emphasis on "was".

drspouse · 11/07/2018 22:36

"Broke in to"?

PamsterWheel · 11/07/2018 22:58

So tired of this shit. Why don't we just throw our fucking hands in the air, sterilise everyone at birth and exterminate ourselves.

What is the fucking point?

loveyouradvice · 11/07/2018 23:09

Erm... how do you launch a consultation to enshrine trans rights, which are already protected by the Equalities Act, in official policy that will cover all of its operations – including the management of the Ladies’ Pond on Hampstead Heath.

This follows months of controversy over who should be able to use the bathing area following a protest from some anti-trans swimmers in January.

The corporation has confirmed the consultation would “ensure services [it provides] do not discriminate against trans people”.

**
Have they confirmed that they will not discriminate against women???? Is this one we can win.... with the help of ManFriday? Or not...?

Waddlelikeapenguin · 11/07/2018 23:33

Confused they want 3 mixed sex pools then?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 11/07/2018 23:37

I don't get it. Unless the word 'consultation' now also means its own diametrically opposite too?

Offred · 11/07/2018 23:44

Man Friday should send an email asking them to remove the ‘anti-trans’ bit as it is defamatory...

As for the rest of it, it’s expected IMO that there would be pushback, it’s evidence the proposed changes reinforce the current hierarchy; sexist, homophobic, transphobic society and therefore won’t be good for anyone.

If the proposed trans rights were going to address oppression then they would be the ones feeling the pushback...

seafret · 12/07/2018 10:28

FFS. This is outrageous.

Obviously we will have to see what the consultation comes up with, but I wondered that rather than framing the argument as single sex exemptions need to be justified, can we argue that changes to policies that end single sex provision is discrimination against women and women in certain religious groups and that a fully trans inclusive policy in the womens pond is not a proportionate means of achieving their legit aim (trans inclusion).

In laymans terms, it is clearly not proportionate that the presence of one male bodied person could put off 100s of women.

But in legal terms, proportionate means doing no more than is necessary to achieve the aim. In this case if the aim is trans inclusion, the mixed sex pool achieves this already. Thus any further changes to policy that disadvantage women are disciminatory and unjustified as alternative arrangements that achieve the aim are already in place.

It is not enough that the aim is legitmate, and so fulfillment by any means is always justified, it is necessary to balance the needs of the groups and the means available to meet the needs.

As I understand it, the burden would be on the council to prove that the unfavourable treatment of women could be objectively justitifed.

This would be hard to argue against for any other reason than 'kind validation of feelings/identity' because if transwomen cannot swim with males for safety reasons, then surely women cannot either.

We need local women to help challenge this (so not accused of vexatiousness) am not a local or I would be prepared to do it as I would love to swim but have issues from PTSD etc so womens places are necessary for me.

ToeToToe · 12/07/2018 10:38

I thought the police that attended the MF protest mentioned a by-law that meant the pond was single sex - and thus the MF women couldn't "identify" their way into there?

If so, that should be the case for the women's pond.

Except, of course, it won't be - because men. The men seem to be favoured whichever side of the fence they are on. Men want single sex bathing - you got it! Want to identify as women and go into the women's pool? You also got it! Hmm

ijustwannadance · 12/07/2018 10:48

So men can use all 3 pools and women can fuck off.

MsBeee · 12/07/2018 10:52

The ponds have communal changing and showers. It is a safe place for women and girls to shower becuse it is female only.

Also the sunbathing areas, most women are topless. The women are not allowed to be completely naked, because they have problems with men with binoculars coming to look and that would encourage them.

Already the women’s behaviour and options are shut restricted becuse of men’s behaviour.
And they want to make it gender fluid.

JellySlice · 12/07/2018 17:51

What an unpleasantly biased article. So biased it's dishonest!

MsBeee · 13/07/2018 11:08

Well I’m sure all the women are looking forward to showering and dressing in the communal showers with women with penis. Especially lovely for all the little girls who swim with their mums.

This centres trans feelings ( virtue signaling, city of London !! ) over the safeguarding of women and children.

There is already a gender fluid pond, it’s called the mixed pond.

How on Earth are we to teach our children boundaries when there is a patent disregard fir their boundaries in the public spaces they access.

enoughisenough12 · 17/07/2018 19:19

BBC tv had a piece about this. I thought it was quite balanced with both sides represented. They also clarified the self ID bit.
Alarmingly the Corporation of London spokesman just spouted the 'transwomen are women' myth (censors self.....)

R0wantrees · 27/07/2018 08:44

Alarmingly the Corporation of London spokesman just spouted the 'transwomen are women' myth (censors self.....)

The spokesperson is Edward Lord who identifies as non-binary. Recent tweet comment,
"Proud to be at #TransPrideBrighton. I am non-binary because I am a feminist; because I hate toxic masculinity; because I want to bring an end to patriarchy and misogyny; and because I feel love, affinity and solidarity for trans and queer siblings of whatever gender. 💙"

Re Edward Lord,
twitter.com/AlfredBelpaire/status/1022621390464278528

"Edward Lord OBE is "NONBINARY". Yet he is a Grand Officer and Chairman of the Universities Scheme of the United Grand Lodge of England which recruits MEN ONLY."

Further discussion about the London Corporation consultation on current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3317922-City-of-London-Corporation-consultation-is-out

lostlemon · 27/07/2018 09:01

Surely by doing this they are just making all the ponds mixed and we all lose but of course especially women. They will not be able to stop women self iding and going into the mens pond. This isn't what should happen however in many ways if these organisations insist on taking this stance then there will be consequences for men only areas too. I dont like it but I'm starting to wonder if the ramp up of ManFriday is going to be instrumental in highlighting the issues.

SwearyG · 27/07/2018 11:29

Don't be silly lostlemon only two of the ponds become mixed. The men's pond reserves the right to throw self ID men out because it breaches bylaws and the men get angry.

enoughisenough12 · 27/07/2018 11:42

lostlemon The anti-women stance of trans organisations is breathtaking. And the irony of the police being called on ManFriday when they went into the men's pond ....
However, I agree it's also important to stress that this is about all of us - men and women. We all lose if this tiny group of aggressive narcissists is able to impose their world order on the rest of us. Sex segregated spaces, hospital wards, child safeguarding, sport - all apply to men and women and (as we know from recent surveys - thank you Pink News) the majority of the population get this and oppose the changes.
The challenge is to enable the rest of the population to understand what is happening in government and institutions 'behind closed doors' while both the government and organisations such as the City of London reckon it's OK to rig consultations in order to get the responses they want.

I am eternally grateful to ManFriday for raising these issues in such a humorous and accessible way. Flowers

TheFemaleGaze · 27/07/2018 11:45

Either all three ponds become mixed or this is a farce.

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