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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I Just Had to Explain Why...

125 replies

Mansplanation · 25/07/2018 12:45

Not hiring a woman on the basis that she may one day get pregnant is wrong to a man why is responsible for hiring junior members of staff in my workplace.

WT actual F!...

His argument is that in a meritocracy, if interviews were conducted with a tick box form and a man and woman ticked all the same boxes all the way down the form, then the last question was "are you planning to have children?", if both answered "yes", he would hire the man. He argued that this was fair because the only differentiating factor is their gender, and therefore the only thing he could make a decision on, so he would base his decision on the fact that a woman would need to take more time off work regardless of whether she chose to take maternity leave or not.

He said that to not take gender into account would be positive discrimination, because he'd be actively ignoring the disadvantages of hiring a woman of child bearing age. What's more, he thinks it's awful that he's not allowed to ask men and women if they are planning to have children in an interview.

So to explain why he can't ask, I used the argument in the picture to illustrate equality vs equity, and explained that by his logic, we give everyone the same sized box to stand on and if they can't see over the wall, that's unfortunate. He mentioned disability and how disabled people are in this situation so it's not unheard of and said he thought this was "just natural".

I said "what about wheelchairs? Is that positive discrimination to give a non independently mobile person a wheelchair so they can get out and about? We are effectively giving them an extra box to stand on that brings them nearer to the advantages of being a mobile person"

He said no, but it's different.

I asked how.

He said he didn't know why and changed the subject to 'what feminism is'.

Apparently, he met a lot of feminists while he was at uni who were man haters and wanted an end to all men. They wanted women to be positively discriminated against. He went on to mansplain what feminism is.. to me.. a feminist.

I explained feminism is a movement that fights for equal rights for women, that's all and he needs to spend more time with feminists.

He said "not all feminists are like you though, you're normal".... why, thank you oh great man voice.

I explained that actually, I'm a very normal feminist and his stereotyping of feminists is probably in need of some revision.

Prick.

Luckily, I'm leaving.

I Just Had to Explain Why...
OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 28/07/2018 07:59

Having children will be a choice for women when we are able to have 100% control over contraception, 100% of the time.

PapaSmurfsSpareHat · 28/07/2018 08:14

Thank you for your apology, Andrea, because your post DID offend me.

I’m a working mother, which is my choice, and in order to leave early (most but not all of the time) I have a greatly reduced salary because I work part time. As I say, this is my choice, but I do sometimes wish I could work more hours, as it would be better for my career.

The work doesn’t stop when you leave. Plenty of unpaid graft bringing up children.

And I do more than my share of unpaid career work. I often (my choice) keep up to date and do bits of work in my own time to keep up with the full timers.

I think this is true of a lot of working parents.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/07/2018 09:20

Was there an apology? I didn't see one.

I just saw a rant about how all working mothers are selfish entitled cunts, and that was it.

Where did I miss something?

Agree the user name is hardly subtle!

ErrolTheDragon · 28/07/2018 09:31

Oh, it was in that posters first post...
somebody who's never felt particularly interested in having kids, I often struggle to see why those that do should get special treatment if I'm brutally honest.
*
I apologise if this offends anyone and I appreciate it's not the popular view - but then again why would it be when most women want a family and the current situation provides them with certain privileges*
Hmm
The people who want kids who get special treatment and privilege are the many fathers whose partner works full time but yet the father doesn't do half the parenting and housework, and doesn't bear half the 'mental load'.

sashh · 28/07/2018 09:43

Way back in the 1970s, pre sex discrimination act my mum had a part time job in a garage, the owner who my parents became friends of said he only hired my mother because there were no other candidates because she had children and he expected her to have time off.

After she had been there a year she showed him how many sick days the mechanics and apprentice had had, compared to her 0 days.

OP

Did you ask him about adoption? Adoption leave is about the same as maternity leave, the difference being it can be either parent taking it. I have worked with two men who adopted, both in same sex relationships.

sashh · 28/07/2018 09:57

Coyoacan

I once said to a female colleague paternity leave should be 6 months and it should be compulsory. She was horrified but it would certainly make employers think twice.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/07/2018 10:04

A lot of men would like that though, wouldn't they. It's gender that says men are all ambitious career orientated, not interested in day to day child stuff.

Of course there are ones who are like that but most men I know would be keen, as they love their children and don't love their jobs!

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/07/2018 10:08

The men at my work take full advantage of the flexibility allowed and the home working, to do school runs, go to school events, take kids to doc etc . Same as the women.

If it's genuinely ok, and where men have partners who work, especially ones who are a similar or higher level of work travel/ commitment, then the men go for it. And then the women don't stand out for taking it. And the men get to spend more time with kids etc... in jobs where it works ie office jobs, it's the way it's all headed at the moment.

AndreaPorkin81 · 28/07/2018 10:45

To be fair, only a couple actually leave at 3:30, having agreed this with the company (although they get to do this every single day). The majority leave at 4:30, but they will not do one minute of overtime, and in a job where last-minute changes to the spec and extra tasks always crop up (proposal management) it's not on.

And what's wrong with my name? It's meant to be humorous. MRA? Grin

AndreaPorkin81 · 28/07/2018 10:47

And I really don't mean to offend. I just feel that the many extra hours I work take the piss more than me staying a few truths.

I appreciate mothers have a lot of work to do when they get home, but that's not my problem tbh. It's part of why I don't really want kids.

AndreaPorkin81 · 28/07/2018 10:48

'Saying' not staying

AndreaPorkin81 · 28/07/2018 11:05

Upstart.

Fair point, but the decision to have (or not) the child ultimately comes down to the woman, so in a way she has more choice than the man.

A male friend of mine recently had a somewhat interesting situation where he started dating a new partner. It seemed a bit odd to me from the start as they seemed quite mismatched in personality (she also a lot more ambitious and literally double the salary of him). After two months she gets pregnant which he was surprised by as she was supposedly on the pill. She almost instantly cut contact and he's now found out she was already trying to adopt. I honestly think he was sperm harvested and there's nothing the poor guy can do now!

PositivelyPERF · 28/07/2018 12:36

You’re just getting tedious now, AndreaPorkin81. 🙄 Close your fly, your agenda is showing.

glasserator · 28/07/2018 12:40

@FermatsTheorem

What’s the L word? Luck?

UpstartCrow · 28/07/2018 12:43

Men that don't want to father children should stop having sex until their vasectomy kicks in.
Thats the best choice for them.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/07/2018 12:45

I know loads of successful financially endowment men who have used men as sperm donors, refused them any contact with their child, and then insisted on leaving at 3.30 on the dot every day.

This is literally a standard scenario and I'm surprised that women are allowed to work at all or have sex out of wedlock at all really.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/07/2018 12:46

Ffs

Financially independent women

My phone obviously doesn't believe it either :D

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/07/2018 12:46

If they’ve agreed it with the company, and the company is making you pick up the slack, and you are, then the issue isn’t with your colleague. It’s with your management and your boundaries.

I’ve had to pick up for other colleagues if they’ve left unexpectedly (sadly we had a death in the team not so long ago) and that’s fine on the proviso that it’s short term, the extra effort is recognised and resourcing is sorted ASAP.

If your company won’t resource appropriately and you’re picking up the extra, they’re laughing if you’re blaming a colleague and not them.

AndreaPorkin81 · 28/07/2018 15:02

Totally agree that the company needs to reconsider their resourcing. However, what I guess I'm getting at here is the socially acceptable expectation that people who have kids will be supported in this choice with as little personal sacrifice as possible - not just by colleagues like me but through maternity pay/leave etc.

I'm not just hating on people who choose parenthood for the sake of it, but why are the things I choose instead less important. Why can't I get paid to have nine months off to renovate my house?

NoSquirrels · 28/07/2018 15:09

why are the things I choose instead less important. Why can't I get paid to have nine months off to renovate my house?

Confused

Will your house contribute to the next generation of society in 18 years time?

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/07/2018 15:17

Lol @ having kids = "little personal sacrifice " :D

I'd go 2/10 I think.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 28/07/2018 15:18

"I'm not just hating on people who choose parenthood for the sake of it"-

Correct. You've specifically been talking about mothers, not parents in general :)

Verbena87 · 28/07/2018 15:26

From his email: I don’t assume every woman will have a child and will need time off work, but I do assume that most women want children and will require some time off to recover after a birth

Yeah. And some (decent, non-wanky, empathetic) men will also see that their female partner still can’t walk or lift the baby comfortably after the laughable 2 week paternity leave and choose to stay at home and help until she’s recovered to the point of being functional. He’s assuming the men he employs won’t want to actually parent and based on an unscientific sample of my friends, that is an increasingly outdated viewpoint.

ErrolTheDragon · 28/07/2018 17:27

If some colleagues are always leaving at 3:30 with the management's agreement, it's highly probable they've requested to work 3/4 time for 3/4 of full salary.

When my DD started school there was no practicable way for me to work full time. My company was happy to continue to employ me half time (for half the salary, obviously) to retain my skills (a niche, highly specialised area). Subsequently my manager had a child, she now works part time too. Between us we've now been with the company over 50 years. (Shock) meanwhile, a lot of the men in our team went off to join a competitor. Our project wouldn't have survived without us... the company supported us and were repaid with loyalty.

Companies which support good work-life balance are practicing enlightened self-interest in terms of retaining valuable staff.

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/07/2018 17:36

However, what I guess I'm getting at here is the socially acceptable expectation that people who have kids will be supported in this choice with as little personal sacrifice as possible

The people who do that are men with partners who facilitate them. Have a read of this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3082251-Men-whose-lives-are-facilitated-by-women-how-did-this-happen

What you’ll see is considerable personal sacrifice by whomever ends up being the primary carer, which is usually the woman. And the man , whose child it is just as much as the woman’s, gets to stay later, climb the ladder higher and reap the benefits.

Now after having a read of that thread, why is your annoyance directed solely at the female parent?

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