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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I Just Had to Explain Why...

125 replies

Mansplanation · 25/07/2018 12:45

Not hiring a woman on the basis that she may one day get pregnant is wrong to a man why is responsible for hiring junior members of staff in my workplace.

WT actual F!...

His argument is that in a meritocracy, if interviews were conducted with a tick box form and a man and woman ticked all the same boxes all the way down the form, then the last question was "are you planning to have children?", if both answered "yes", he would hire the man. He argued that this was fair because the only differentiating factor is their gender, and therefore the only thing he could make a decision on, so he would base his decision on the fact that a woman would need to take more time off work regardless of whether she chose to take maternity leave or not.

He said that to not take gender into account would be positive discrimination, because he'd be actively ignoring the disadvantages of hiring a woman of child bearing age. What's more, he thinks it's awful that he's not allowed to ask men and women if they are planning to have children in an interview.

So to explain why he can't ask, I used the argument in the picture to illustrate equality vs equity, and explained that by his logic, we give everyone the same sized box to stand on and if they can't see over the wall, that's unfortunate. He mentioned disability and how disabled people are in this situation so it's not unheard of and said he thought this was "just natural".

I said "what about wheelchairs? Is that positive discrimination to give a non independently mobile person a wheelchair so they can get out and about? We are effectively giving them an extra box to stand on that brings them nearer to the advantages of being a mobile person"

He said no, but it's different.

I asked how.

He said he didn't know why and changed the subject to 'what feminism is'.

Apparently, he met a lot of feminists while he was at uni who were man haters and wanted an end to all men. They wanted women to be positively discriminated against. He went on to mansplain what feminism is.. to me.. a feminist.

I explained feminism is a movement that fights for equal rights for women, that's all and he needs to spend more time with feminists.

He said "not all feminists are like you though, you're normal".... why, thank you oh great man voice.

I explained that actually, I'm a very normal feminist and his stereotyping of feminists is probably in need of some revision.

Prick.

Luckily, I'm leaving.

I Just Had to Explain Why...
OP posts:
Mansplanation · 26/07/2018 08:06

I sent the email to CEO last night and basically said ‘hi, got on to the topic of women and feminism with XXXXX yesterday and his viewpoint is illegal and most importantly a massive risk to the business. Because I walked away from the conversation having not agreed he’s right, he felt the need to follow up with the below email. I find it alarming that he felt able to put this all down in writing without fear of repercussion, he needs to be retrained before we let him interview again as a matter of urgency. I’d also suggest we avoid allowing him contact with clients until he’s properly versed in why this is inappropriate.

OP posts:
Blostma · 26/07/2018 08:10

Well done. You have done a very good thing for your organisation as well as “wimmin”.

SophoclesTheFox · 26/07/2018 08:15

Good skills.

Be prepared for some blowback though. Miladdo will not be happy when he finds out he's off to the re-education camp!

I spend a lot of time at work explaining why thinking like this harms businesses. Miladdo will only end up employing people exactly like him, and teams that have no diversity have no creativity, and they don't make as much money as more diverse teams. McKinsey explain why

Imsorrylhaventaclue · 26/07/2018 08:16

Christ OP I’ve just RTFT, I started spitting with rage on your behalf. Well done for forwarding (not least because now you’ll hopefully get a reply from CEO before you leave!).

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/07/2018 08:18

Well done.

I’d love to see what happens next :)

Best of luck with the new job!

KeiTeNgeNge · 26/07/2018 08:25

Good on you op!

WomanInBoots · 26/07/2018 08:44

Grin Not that the man exists but for the response to it.

Eagerly awaiting further update.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 26/07/2018 08:45

Nice one op.

It's worrying though, people seem to be feeling freer to express these views lately.

We have had I think 2 recent threads where mn users ie women were saying in large numbers that it's sensible not to hire women "of child bearing age" ie from school/ uni leaving until, what, 45 or 50. And multiple women with hiring responsibilities saying that they acted on this view.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 26/07/2018 08:49

So that means the attitude was always there and more than likely being acted on, but was hidden.

I wonder if these people are happy for women to be employed as carers, nurses, midwives? Or if they think that is stupid, a waste of tax payers money, and should be stopped.

It honestly boggles my mind that women feel this way, that most other women are or should be unemployable. When they themselves have jobs:/

AngryAttackKittens · 26/07/2018 08:56

"“I feel like we need to agree to disagree on this one, as a woman I don’t think you’re capable of forcing an objective view on this”

"I feel like you need to back the fuck off and obey the law, because I'm your manager and I'm telling you so, and if your poor decisions cause the company to have complaints filed against it I will personally ensure that you are held responsible."

Mansplanation · 26/07/2018 09:06

angry i'm not his manager, if I was I'd have got rid months ago. I'm only slightly senior to him and in a different team.

Absolutely brilliant response from the CEO, it simply says:

"Jesus wept."

Grin

She'll have read it on the train so I'm sure we'll discuss over coffee in a bit.

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 26/07/2018 09:09

I mean, apart from anything else what part of "that's illegal" does he not understand?

Mansplanation · 26/07/2018 09:15

Angry beats me, he seems to think the law is very wrong in this area and it's over the top in some way.

He also said during the course of the conversation that he would and does hire young women if he thinks they'll be better at the job, his hypothetical situation occurs if he gets two candidates who he thinks are equally as good. I tried really hard to explain bias and how even in that scenario, sex shouldnt be a factor but he just couldnt get his head around it at all.

OP posts:
Allaboutalex · 26/07/2018 09:24

Does he not hire cyclists in case they fall over or get knocked down by a bike? Or not hire smokers in case they get a smoking related disease? Or do a thorough mental health check?
His logic is obviously MENTAL but I’d love to beat him at his own logic. Like assuming you’re right the average pregnancy related work loss is x, the average whatever related work loss is y so put that question to differentiate between the sexes. I just need someone to fill in the blanks for me

AngryAttackKittens · 26/07/2018 09:26

I'd be delighted if the CEO sat him down with a graph outlining the financial risks involved in employing people who're insistent on breaking the law re hiring practices.

GahWhatever · 26/07/2018 09:28

The stats show that young men move on faster in a professional environment. Thus while a young woman may get pregnant, have time off and return, a young man is more likely to get the training and move to another company.
I built a new team of graduates and PhDs just under 10 years ago. Of the 11 staff who are still within the company, 9 are women, 4 of whom have children.
If I recruited on the basis of gender I wouldn't hire men because they take the training, get the tick on their CV and bugger off...well not actually, but if I were only looking at gender vs company loyalty then that's what I'd do.
If your colleague is only looking at 'potential time off for maternity' vs gender then his conclusion is natural, but looking at the larger context of staff training, loyalty, value for money overall, he is mistaken.
Even if he isn't interested in equality (or the law), the financial figures don't bear out his theory.

katmarie · 26/07/2018 09:31

Jesus wept is right. Not to mention that with shared parental leave it could be the man he hires who chooses to take time off after the birth of his child these days. Does he have kids? What an arse.

Lottapianos · 26/07/2018 09:37

Excellent work OP and excellent response from your CEO. I've read your thread and alternated between laughing and fuming all the way. The arrogance and lack of self awareness is breathtaking. No idea why 'the feminists' at his university couldn't stand him!

AngryAttackKittens · 26/07/2018 09:39

"Have you considered the possibility that it was you, specifically, that the feminists at your university didn't like?"

Mansplanation · 26/07/2018 10:09

Had a coffee with my CEO this morning, she isn't sure whether to chalk it up to a staggering lack of self awareness or a genuine, targeted hatred or women.

The guy works for a female CEO and is in an industry where that's not that unusual so either way, it would be unkind not to insist he does some retraining.

Currently trying to work out what kind of retraining he needs, it's not sensitivity training, diversity maybe?

CEO mentioned she has a suspicion he might be an incel, if so i fear he's a lost cause.

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 26/07/2018 10:20

I wonder if he specifically sought out that kind of environment out of resentment towards women and desire to force women to interact with him.

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/07/2018 10:27

Currently trying to work out what kind of retraining he needs, it's not sensitivity training, diversity maybe?

‘Basic humanity 101.’

Very interesting she thinks he’s an incel. Wonder what she bases that on... Shock

boatyardblues · 26/07/2018 12:36

"Jesus wept."

Proper LOLs here. So glad the woman next to me is out at mo.

Blostma · 26/07/2018 16:16

That is a brilliant response. Grin

Itoldyouiwasgeeky · 26/07/2018 22:00

Thank heaven for female CEOs.

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