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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I Just Had to Explain Why...

125 replies

Mansplanation · 25/07/2018 12:45

Not hiring a woman on the basis that she may one day get pregnant is wrong to a man why is responsible for hiring junior members of staff in my workplace.

WT actual F!...

His argument is that in a meritocracy, if interviews were conducted with a tick box form and a man and woman ticked all the same boxes all the way down the form, then the last question was "are you planning to have children?", if both answered "yes", he would hire the man. He argued that this was fair because the only differentiating factor is their gender, and therefore the only thing he could make a decision on, so he would base his decision on the fact that a woman would need to take more time off work regardless of whether she chose to take maternity leave or not.

He said that to not take gender into account would be positive discrimination, because he'd be actively ignoring the disadvantages of hiring a woman of child bearing age. What's more, he thinks it's awful that he's not allowed to ask men and women if they are planning to have children in an interview.

So to explain why he can't ask, I used the argument in the picture to illustrate equality vs equity, and explained that by his logic, we give everyone the same sized box to stand on and if they can't see over the wall, that's unfortunate. He mentioned disability and how disabled people are in this situation so it's not unheard of and said he thought this was "just natural".

I said "what about wheelchairs? Is that positive discrimination to give a non independently mobile person a wheelchair so they can get out and about? We are effectively giving them an extra box to stand on that brings them nearer to the advantages of being a mobile person"

He said no, but it's different.

I asked how.

He said he didn't know why and changed the subject to 'what feminism is'.

Apparently, he met a lot of feminists while he was at uni who were man haters and wanted an end to all men. They wanted women to be positively discriminated against. He went on to mansplain what feminism is.. to me.. a feminist.

I explained feminism is a movement that fights for equal rights for women, that's all and he needs to spend more time with feminists.

He said "not all feminists are like you though, you're normal".... why, thank you oh great man voice.

I explained that actually, I'm a very normal feminist and his stereotyping of feminists is probably in need of some revision.

Prick.

Luckily, I'm leaving.

I Just Had to Explain Why...
OP posts:
rosablue · 26/07/2018 23:59

Love the email you sent your boss - and her reply.

Can't wait to hear what the idiot incel's reaction is when he hears he needs some retraining...

Has anybody looked back over his past hires to see if there's a male bias to his hiring pattern?

EBearhug · 27/07/2018 00:14

Currently trying to work out what kind of retraining he needs, it's not sensitivity training, diversity maybe?

Diversity, unconscious bias, how to hire fairly and remain within the law...

NotMeOhNo · 27/07/2018 01:58

Don't let them send him to training
This is the kinda MRA who goes full TRA.

Coyoacan · 27/07/2018 05:05

Just confirms my life-long experience that misogynists are always right thickos. Which, of course, makes them even more enfuriating.

Imchlibob · 27/07/2018 06:24

So glad you forwarded it to the ceo - I was reading through the thread composing my "don't wait - forward the email now" post then you did it already. Excellent. I think you need to step back now though - he isn't your problem and if you require involved with his "re-education" it will sour your last few days. Good luck in your next job.

Mansplanation · 27/07/2018 09:29

Don’t worry I’m not engaging in the loon’s re-education, I’ve done my bit! Although, I feel rather like I’ve pulled the pin out of a grande, chucked it over my shoulder and buggered off Grin

This guy has form for poor internal relationships anyway, he rubs clients up the wrong way sometimes too. He’s very good at working with old school male CEO’s and a lot of our clients fit this description, so he’s useful in the old world. I just think he’s going to get very outdated soon, and at 30 years old his particular specialism in chartting up white haired old gents is going to be useless for the majority of his career if he doesn’t adapt.

Meh, not my problem.

OP posts:
AndreaPorkin81 · 28/07/2018 00:52

This guy sounds a tool, but on the other hand as somebody who's never felt particularly interested in having kids, I often struggle to see why those that do should get special treatment if I'm brutally honest.

I apologise if this offends anyone and I appreciate it's not the popular view - but then again why would it be when most women want a family and the current situation provides them with certain privileges (for them to refute this would be like turkeys/Xmas).

Perhaps I'm just jaded from being the one who by default gets to sit and work on 'team' proposals late into the night whilst over half of my team get to leave at 3:30 to pick up the kids, whilst still receiving the same pay as me and the same cut of the quarterly team bonus - leaving me and the blokes to work unpaid overtime.

In a world that is already creaking under the strain of overpopulation, with natural resources ever scarcer, I just don't buy the 'generation of the future' argument at all. Having children is a choice not a biological imperative or altruistic act IMO and I personally feel that the individual making that choice should bear responsibility for the personal consequences of their choice.

SquishySquirmy · 28/07/2018 01:05

Andrea If you are a woman, you will be disadvantaged when applying for jobs by men like the one op encountered, whether or not you want kids anyway!

As for it being expected that women leave work early to pick up the kids - I agree that expectation is shit. Not least because of the expectation from fathers that the mums always do it do it.

eg how many of the men working late in the office with you had children? Chances are their own wives couldn't ever stay late at work, because they had to pick up the children because the fathers wouldn't. Men who push all the burden onto their partners because they wont pick up any of the slack themselves are a big part of the problem.

(Although I have never seen anyone leaving at 3:30 unless they have flexible hours that involve coming in early. Parents pay for wraparound care! I have seen parents of both sexes having to leave on time at 5:30 or whatever to get the kids from the wraparound care. But I don't see whats wrong with that.)

SquishySquirmy · 28/07/2018 01:11

And population growth is not driven by rising birth rate.
Birth rates are falling in most parts of the world.
Population growth is driven by falling death rates and increased life expectancy; there is a lag between the death rate falling and the birth rate falling hence the population growth. But this growth is now slowing down. Demographically, the difference between mortality and birth rate trends has caused populations to become older, and this will become more pronounced.
If too few children are born, there will be issues in the future as the working population will not be able to support the elderly, retired population.

AndreaPorkin81 · 28/07/2018 01:29

I'm feeling that the 'burden' is on me and the others that have to stay late at work time and time again to pick up the slack - it's not a privilege IMO. And tbh I don't really feel that it's fine that others get to leave on time, directly causing me to have to stay late and pick up the slack - whenever I've tried to tactfully raise this inequality I've been met with either dismissiveness or a almost passively hostile sense of entitlement (articulated calmly but in no uncertain terms).

Part of my decision to not have kids is (I think) the unwillingness to give up my time/freedom and it annoys the shit out of me that I'm regularly giving these up for other people's kids.

I feel like people should have to pull their weight regardless of their situation (barring illness etc) and if they're unable to then this maybe isn't the right job for them. Other people's kids aren't my problem.

AndreaPorkin81 · 28/07/2018 01:32

I also speculate that these privileges might help drive the abovementioned discrimination. That is, if I'm not able to take extended paid leave then my employer can't hold this against me during the recruitment stage.

SquishySquirmy · 28/07/2018 01:44

If they're genuinely leaving at 3:30 every day (and they are full time and didn't start work super early etc) then you have a point Andrea.

But like I said, that seems very extreme to me and I do not believe it is widespread.

Leaving at 5:30 to pick up kids from the childminder/after school club?
Yes. That happens. But I don't see people leaving work on time to be a big deal. The expectation that everyone should regularly stay late (and that those who cant are not pulling their weight) is presenteeism and a sign of inefficiency.
If a company regularly requires its staff to work past their contracted hours, (not just at unusually busy times) then they need to hire more people. It is not the ones leaving on time who are screwing you over if that is the case.

SquishySquirmy · 28/07/2018 01:46

How will your employer know you are not able to take extended paid leave at the recruitment stage?

PerspicaciaTick · 28/07/2018 02:05

Andrea why is your employer so rubbish at enforcing people's contracts?

Coyoacan · 28/07/2018 04:49

I like the model in Iceland where they give men equal paternity leave to the maternity leave women get. They did it specifically to stop this prejudice against women that is the subject of this thread, but found that it has another important benefit is making responsible fathers out of men who are allowed proper time to bond with their children.

boatyardblues · 28/07/2018 07:00

I saw plenty of men out & about midweek in downtown Reykjavik with babies and young children when I visited. It is a policy that clearly works and entitlements are used.

UpstartCrow · 28/07/2018 07:17

MRA's believe that feminists have wrecked society and the economy with their stupid policies. It's no surprise to see them pushing their agenda on a parenting website.

AngryAttackKittens · 28/07/2018 07:21

The name isn't exactly subtle...

StealthPolarBear · 28/07/2018 07:25

What's an incel

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/07/2018 07:27

I'm feeling that the 'burden' is on me and the others that have to stay late at work time and time again to pick up the slack

That’s poor resourcing and management. That’s the fault of your company.

Yarnswift · 28/07/2018 07:35

DH and I shared and still share dropnoffs and pick ups, and often work after (we have to be very flexible.)

No one has ever had to pick up the slack for either of us and if that was happening there’d be a stern word with whoever is handling resourcing.

In the Scandinavian/Nordic block the expectation is that men do their share too. It does have a number of knock on effects. In my Swedish office both the men who had children during my time there took a significant proportion of the parental leave. It’s extremely common to see men pushing prams/doing drop offs and pickups/at groups and nursery and docs appts. Funnily enough, their insistence on the pink/blue boxes for little ones is almost non existent. From being tiny Swedish kids just wear practical outdoor clothes in bright colours. And lo! When they grow up the men tend to treat women more like fellow humans than inconvenient breeding and shagging receptacles. I know several women who have been hired while visibly pregnant because the assumption is that ANYONE of that age could take parental leave.

Almost every family I know with very young kids has both parents working 80-85% so they can share more easily. It’s the norm here and weirdly, Sweden is more productive than the UK.

Toddleoo · 28/07/2018 07:48

Yarnswift, I regularly wish I'd been born Swedish, feeling it even more now Grin

Yarnswift · 28/07/2018 07:52

It’s a very different society in terms of gender/sex expectations. I’m a Brit living here and the difference in how men and women interact is so noticeable. I have literally NEVER felt unsafe/leered at/had comments at work or outside it/had ‘handsy’ bloke paw me. I’m sure it happens, nowhere is perfect, but it’s very different to the UK.

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 28/07/2018 07:53

“I feel like we need to agree to disagree on this one, as a woman I don’t think you’re capable of forcing an objective view on this”

As one wise MNer once said:

“Ah. Objectivity. The subjective opinion of the dominant paradigm!”

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 28/07/2018 07:58

Having children is a choice not a biological imperative

Of course it is. It’s exactly that! It may not be for you (and you shouldn’t suffer for that) but it is for the majority of women and men.

The only difference is that only women suffer for it when it comes to their career because career men have wives. Career women don’t.

It’s unjust, plain and simple.

Your company should not be relying on overtime.