Trans women are women, is the biggest oxymoron ever written.

[happydappy2]

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist? I don't understand how law can not be written in a way that recognises women as women and trans women as trans women.

Thus trans women are treated with respect and dignity, and so are women. This blurring of the lines is helping no one.

Who ever claimed that trans women are women? Unless we can differentiate between the 2 there will always be conflict. Is it too late for reality to kick in here?

Try to listen2

Do try to listen. It's not about you and your trans friends. It's about my daughter 14 who wants to change her tampon without seeing your size 11s under the cubicle partition.

Why cannot you allow the young girl her privacy you misigenist?

That's the thing I've noticed about certain types. They cannot consider how their behaviours impact upon weaker members of society. It's all a performance, it's all a selfie fest.

Home from the hills

Respect to you.

Women were objecting 40 and 50 years ago and being ignored just as they are now.

This thread shows how trivial women's opinions are. When told of how important single sex spaces are for women, transpeople just talk about their wants and tell us that our needs come second to theirs.

At least posters here are honest and don't hide the fact that they don't care about the safety and dignity of women and girls.

Those born males that have transitioned and don't claim to be women actually seem to have a better experience and understanding of what it is actually like to be a woman. They live in the group, but they do not try to colonize it.

To play the fool and not understand the meaning or usage of trans is a lazy attempt at having a sound argument.
Name calling and refusing to answer questions addressed to you more so...

I don’t know what the size of someone’s feet have to do with whether they can use a toilet or not?

By the way my feet are much smaller than size 11.

If women have size 11 feet are they not allowed in the toilet? There are definitely some women with large feet out there.

It’s clear what the Government’s position is.

“Trans women are women, that is the starting point for this consultation.”
Penny Mordaunt, interview in Pink News www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/07/03/penny-mordaunt-interview-gender-recognition-act/

The ministerial forward to the GRA is included in this post.

The argument about toilets is a red-herring. It is unpolicable whatever the outcome. There aren’t going to be security checks like an airport. Trans people aren’t going to be issued with special ID cards. We have a right to privacy and keeping all trans people’s names on a public list would be a very bad idea given the hate out there.

Also attached the Government definition of who trans people change gender.

It’s clear what the Government’s position is.Trans women are women, that is the starting point for this consultation.”
Penny Mordaunt, interview in Pink News

I find such a biased and scientifically incorrect statement inappropriate at best as the starting point of a government consultation.

The starting point should be identifying the point of difference/contention and then canvassing opinion from all stakeholders.

Penny mordant has failed to do so and in doing that she shatters confidence in the consultation as impartial. She starts with an agenda, not a point of difference.

Sigh. My spidey senses were telling me that this particular commenter's claim to be listening was going to turn out not to be true.

Mordaunt's comment is like opening a consultation on whether fishing should be allowed in a certain area with the comment "our starting point is that fishing in area X is allowed".

Do you often find that you change your stance on something because some people you don't like hold a similar stance and you think they're horrid, trying?

I have to say that I don't think it says much for the courage of your convictions if it's about the personalities and not the principles.

The argument about toilets is a red-herring. It is unpolicable whatever the outcome. There aren’t going to be security checks like an airport. Trans people aren’t going to be issued with special ID cards. We have a right to privacy and keeping all trans people’s names on a public list would be a very bad idea given the hate out there

We have lots of laws that aren't policed. Take driving, for example - it is illegal to drive without a licence and whilst intoxicated. You do not have to evidence you have a license or are sober in order to drive, knowing you could be and the punishment if caught, serve as a deterrent.

Organisations should be able to provide single sex services/provision, where there is a good reason for doing so. They should be able to access evidence of sex should there be reason of doubt.

The key thing is for all to be absolutely clear as to who has right of access and who doesn't and for individuals to respect this and so face consequences if they don't.

Oh, colour me shocked. Appeals to female socialisation failed to achieve the desired result, so we've reverted back to misogyny, which is where we were really at all along.

If you can't hear a woman's "no" without throwing your toys out of the pram, you are demonstrating quite a lot of things, none of which have anything to do with women.

So y'know. A reminder. No is a complete sentence and not the beginning of a negotiation.

NO.

Oh, colour me shocked. Appeals to female socialisation failed to achieve the desired result, so we've reverted back to misogyny, which is where we were really at all along.

Women talking exclusively about women and girls has had that effect on quite a few transpeople who come onto FWR.

I wonder what they expected? Surely that's what feminism is - women centring women.

Silly Zutt, feminism is a general social justice movement in which women perform their social role perfectly by putting their own welfare last and focusing on making other people happy. The motion to rename it "femininityism" was rejected on the grounds that it was too hard to spell.

Mordaunt's comment is like opening a consultation on whether fishing should be allowed in a certain area with the comment "our starting point is that fishing in area X is allowed".

YY, exactly.

(And lol I first read that as "flashing" for reasons you can guess )

Sigh. My spidey senses were telling me that this particular commenter's claim to be listening was going to turn out not to be true.

They tried, AAK! They tried really hard. But they don't like what they hear.

If TRAs get their way flashing will be allowed in all areas, obviously. Bloody women getting in the way of progress by objecting to seeing random cock!

The motion to rename it "femininityism" was rejected on the grounds that it was too hard to spell.

It's was a shame really, femininityism is such a pretty word.

Bit long for a hashtag though so it wouldn't do.

tryingtolisten2, I imagine you were referring to my posts. Which is fair enough. I know that many transactivists feel as you do and say so to me. I accept that as I understand why they perceive my opinions as anti trans, when in truth I see them as quite the opposite.

I could be right. I could be wrong. But I have formed this view over time by listening and learning and balancing the views of many with my own experience. I do not pretend it will be accepted by all. I am well aware, not just from this thread but other places, that I personally will not be seen differently by some feminists. As their stance comes from principles and is based on them rather than individuals.

So I am not playing to a crowd. Right or wrong what I say is my true belief. And it will lead me wherever it leads me and I will deal with the consequences.

Am I scared for what might happen? Not really, because I have lived many years without GRA so even if it disappeared I know it is perfectly possible to live a good life without any rights.

They are NOT everything. They are a sideshow to life. The real trick is just to be yourself and not worry about what others think. You will find they treat you as they find you regardless and rights, as such, are not that important in the long run.

They can become so personally, however, if they are the entire focus of your life in wanting them, desiring them, feeling you don't have them and that you cannot be validated without them.

Not at all saying this is what you are doing but it is what a lot of trans people seem to be doing. This has become a fight to be accepted by the world in the sex they say they are.

Yes, you are right, a lot of people will treat you that way if you live honourably. That should be enough.

Especially as when needing all to accept transwomen are women as a reality is an import focus in anyone's life then true happiness will be elusive.

Because deep down you will know that in literal reality that is not true and cannot ever be true and the more you try to convince yourself that it is the more entrenched will the principle become for those for whom the scientific definition of 'woman' matters a lot.

You cannot change reality by wanting it to happen and you cannot change minds and opinions by ordering others to believe your truths.

All it will do is increase frustration and negative emotions post transition - which are a large part of the perception of transphobia in day to day life. We blame others for this but often it is our personal need for acceptance that is the true culprit.

Accepting that one small thing is better than any psychotherapy.

When you stop looking and start accepting what kind of woman you can be as opposed to dreaming of impossibilities then contentment can come. And, yes, you are right, most people day to day will treat you as they find you and interact with you as a woman.

That is way more important than bits of paper or making them agree that they believe you literally ARE a woman - because that is not going to happen. Most realise it is not literally true. You will too. Trying to aspire to what can never be rather than being the best at what you can be is always going to take you towards unhappiness.

I have no desire to throw anyone under the bus. But that includes women who have every right to be concerned about such a big shift impacting their lives which is looming.

Possibly when you have spent more years in life identifying with women you might see that. I suspect that you will suddenly get why it was not bigotry or hatred in most cases but genuine concern for their own sense of important personal reality.

You cannot argue the importance of your self perception and deny the importance of that to those who are concerned that their own may be diluted by expanding your horizons.

Being trans should always be about give and take. Far too often these days it seems to be more about take and take away.

Anyway, back to the original question

If trans women are women, then why do the words trans women exist?

The word needs to exist so they can talk about themselves exclusively while taking over feminist and women's spaces.

Unfortunately, Zutt, such a response is probably why self ID will get passed this autumn....something I suspect neither of us want.

Any chance of persuading more sensible TS to leave their lonf established comfort zone of quiet anonymity and speak out in public will vanish if they feel that tryintolisten2 is right and they are just the enemy regardless.

I have seen plenty ask on here or social media why more sensible trans people do not speak up if they really exist.

They DO exist but neither side really want to hear what we have to say for totally different reasons.

So there is no incentive to out themselves and become hate figures all round. They just get on with living and hope it sorts itself out. Its easier than speaking out.

The result is we end up with a very polarised debate.

Unfortunately, if the government does not get to see how TS think about this because they mostly stay silent then they will decide their policy based on weighing both extremes together.

And likely come up with an unsatisfactory fudge that works only to annoy everyone.

The precedent with this government is there - see Brexit.

Ah, yes of course. Because I don't care for the way two transpeople have derailed a thread to talk about who is the most trans, I am responsible for self id.

It's nothing to do with misogyny, it's nothing to do with the fact that women are supposed to budge up and stop centering themselves.

There are thousands of places you two could have had that conversation, but you decided to have it here where women want to talk about women and our experiences.

Stop claiming that it's women's fault self id is being considered. Own it, you are responsible, not me.

I've given up reading novel-length posts. It seems to take an awful lot of words to tell me I should budge up for this group or that group or this faction or that faction.

I just want to talk to women.