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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

OP posts:
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ErrolTheDragon · 21/07/2018 14:29

I've much more respect for those trans women and gender-nonconforming men who want to keep the definitions of 'woman' and 'man', and be included as fully real males. The 'gentle fey boys' are just as much young males as macho blokes. An androgynous and/or nerdy young woman is fully female.

AngryAttackKittens · 21/07/2018 14:32

Yep. I'm 100% supportive of the fey, gentle blokes being themselves. Trying to convince either themselves or others that they're women is not being themselves.

seafret · 21/07/2018 14:33

I said this in another thread. People, including some women, talk about expanding or broadening the definition of “woman” as if it is a waste of a good word for it to mean only “adult human female”.

oscarino yes that riles me too. I can only conclude that men who think like that are targeting the category 'woman' and women themselves becasue they feel they have a good chance of success in pushing women aside, rather than challenging men who would metaphirically or literally punch them back into their place. They are the kind of men who prefer to do the metaphorical or literal punching.

Women being 'kind' in this context is merely seen as weakness and stupidity. We don't earn respect for that, and probably don't deserve it either.

Oscarino · 21/07/2018 14:34

DonkeySkin.
Why waste a perfectly good word like 'woman' on lowly creatures with cunts, when it could be so much nobler, imbued with the humanity that only penis-havers can bestow?

I know, right? Trying to keep ‘woman’ for ourselves when there are men, actual men, who want it. Selfish bitches we are.

Oscarino · 21/07/2018 14:35

Sorry about my formatting. Bolding is beyond me sometimes.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 21/07/2018 15:13

Bolding is beyond me sometimes.

It's strikethru for me - I think it's part of a bizarre initiation ceremony to get that working Grin

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 21/07/2018 16:27

I wonder whether the misconception some seem to hold that womanhood is an elite club you can join / a status you can 'earn' rather than an immutable biological fact arises from the fact that men have constructed 'manhood' in precisely those terms

(obvs to 'be a man' you need the bio underpinnings in addition to the status / initiation stuff, but it would be perfectly consistent for female biology to be perceived as too unimportant to be necessary to the definition in the same way)

Floorplan · 21/07/2018 16:33

Great thread. We are getting closer to the nitty gritty of the problem as a collective unit, but kudos to the poster for a huge step forward.

This puts in words a concept that many of us, I'm sure, were beginning to formulate in the back of our minds - that the whole shebang comes down to one simple set of interconnected questions:

(*throughout this woman and man take the meanings as stood in 1900. You may wish to insert penis bearers, XX/XY etc but pink brain, feelz, ladydick are not the discriminators in this argument, the dick, at birth, is the one)

-do women as a group and men as a group merit differential collective nouns;
-do women and men have significant differences in terms of needs and rights;

I'm a bit tired but that's what it comes down to

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 21/07/2018 16:52

women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality.

Exactly. Now, how do we get the BBC to give us a series of spots on the main news to get that message across?

womanformallyknownaswoman · 21/07/2018 17:01

Exactly. Now, how do we get the BBC to give us a series of spots on the main news to get that message across?

Mary Beard??

FeminismandWomensFights · 21/07/2018 17:37

Agree with what you say Oscarino. I think for some women in addition to some internalised misogyny (which let’s face it, is often an understandable rational conclusion to arrive at to rationalise how women are often treated..) there’s also perhaps a reaction based on having had bad experiences because of their being a woman, so they feel kind of sometimes a bit of a feeling like fuck it, if you want it that much, it’s not going to be what you think to live as a woman so you’re welcome to it, let’s see how you get on.

nauticant · 21/07/2018 17:39

This discussion makes me think about the AIBU thread about the rapist who is incarcerated in a women's prison for raping a baby. (Since incarceration they've had sex reassignment surgery.) On MN in general, ie not FWR, discussion of trans will produce a lot of "trans women are women" type arguments but on that thread very few posters were able to bring themselves to speak in those terms. The particular individual involved caused a cognitive dissonance in the minds of posters that was too large to bridge with a slogan.

Floorplan · 21/07/2018 19:16

You mean some did?

leyat · 21/07/2018 19:21

Hi OP, brilliant post! I am working on some stuff for a campaign group in Scotland, I would like to maybe steal a little bit of this if you are alright with that? I just think you have worded it so perfectly that I would not want to paraphrase(!). It's the last couple of paragraphs in particular...

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 21/07/2018 19:46

floorplan

Yep

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 21/07/2018 20:26

Floorplan one in particular said that the rapist was an evil woman and let's not forget that women are capable of being as evil as men...as the case showed. The madness of some people!

Floorplan · 21/07/2018 20:32

I just cannot get my head round how this crime could be a female act, or be envisigned as such, by anyone ever.

knit1purl1 · 21/07/2018 21:13

Late to this thread but can only add that my first revelation was the simple statement: No one can change their sex, no matter how much they want to. Can't happen.

The second revelation came when I realised that no one believes the lie that 'transwomen are women'. Lots of people say they do but none of them really do. Not one.

The most important point I've ever needed to make is that you can't choose a gender-identity because gender is imposed by society. So gender is how you're treated so you are treated as the gender everyone else thinks you are, basically. Trans identified males are treated as they are perceived, i.e. as men (albeit transgressive ones perhaps) in 99% of cases and that means they are listened to as human beings. Which means listened to in terms of lawmaking. Which is why we are where we are, with lawmakers understanding that primogeniture laws must protect men from women staking a claim on men's rights but laws protecting women's rights are unimportant.

Three things, illustrating what Donkeyskin is saying.

ElenOfTheWays · 21/07/2018 21:23

Weirdly I have been considering posting something very similar to this. Just hadn't got my thoughts in order yet.

The feeling has been creeping up on me for some time that Transactivists are not delusional at all, they are just liars.

That Transactivism is a massive exercise in gaslighting.

I think it was the "men can have periods too" that really set me off on this train of thought, but also the myriad posters on here who, in the face of logical, rational arguments simply will not admit to often well known truths.

They aren't deluded (they may be brainwashed I guess) but they come a across to me as simple liars. Every time.

ConfessionsOfTeenageDramaQueen · 21/07/2018 21:25

Not RTFT but excellent OP, OP.

Orwell's 1984 has never felt more real.

Mxyzptlk · 21/07/2018 22:54

An important question I've just thought of to ask MPs is "What safeguards will be put in place to protect women and girls from men who abuse the situation created by accepting TW as women?"

(Maybe needs a little work, but you get the idea)

TWs say that self-id is no big deal because no-one asks for your birth certificate, or anything else, when you go to the toilet or gym etc.

That being so, the self-id requirement of intending to live as one's chosen gender forever means nothing. Any man will be able to enter women's spaces and no-one will commit the 'hate crime' of challenging them.

Materialist · 21/07/2018 23:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Floorplan · 21/07/2018 23:30

Ellen yy see my p8 post.
When an idea is ready to happen many people are ready but good on op for getting there first.

ouda · 21/07/2018 23:48

I was just thinking about this thread, and apologies to all the people to whom this has been obvious since whenever, and I see that Materialist has just got to the same point at the same time as I have.

But it just hit me really strongly that what all this is about is not about biology, or gender, or even TW - what all this is about is power. It's about men using women's soft spot - their kindness and sympathy towards those suffering discrimination, due to their own lived experience of this - to deliberately target women's power structures, laws protecting women, exclusive women's networks and support structures such as lesbian groups, etc.

I think we as a group have been tending to see TRA's (MRA's) aggressiveness or gaslighting or undermining of female power structures as an annoying side effect or even coincidence of their prime aim, to impose trans rights on the population.

I think it just hit me that this is not their main aim at all - trans rights are purely a handy means to an end, which is to reassert men's power against uppity women. That they can co-opt women as handmaidens to do some of their dirty work for them both makes their job easier and is a brilliant undermining of women's power into the bargain.

It's part of a wider contemporary battle that's going on over women's rights, with eg MeToo on one side. It's clearly politically impossible for abusive men to fight back against that as they would have done so traditionally, by just decking the uppity women en masse. But this is a clever and I'm sure deliberate plan to fight back in such a way that not only are women deprived of their rights, but they are also painted as the abusers of poor little transwomen at the same time AND TRAs get to entirely shut down all debate on the matter by claiming any discussion is politically incorrect and hate speech.

It IS gaslighting and it IS abusive and it IS deliberate.

It is classic male, abusive power play.

And the best way to defeat it is to point out the bleeding obvious, that the men doing this are NOT oppressed, they are violent, misogynistic oppressors. That 6 foot something men with male bodies don't magically become vulnerable little wallflowers because they're wearing some eye shadow or have grown their hair. That a thug in a dress who attacks women is still a thug who attacks women. The dress is not an excuse and it's not a justification. And women, as ever, need protection under the law from these larger, stronger and more violent men.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 22/07/2018 00:00

This whole thread is amazing Flowers

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