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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter from feminists against Pride protest

135 replies

MillyTheKid · 14/07/2018 22:07

Link to letter and article in The Independent:

solidaritystatement650530505.wordpress.com/

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-pride-lgbt-anti-trans-protest-transphobia-a8442366.html

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 14/07/2018 22:19

Its a good job they didn't read the posts from trans supporters on this forum that suggest if you're over 5' 8", have short hair or don't perform femininity, you're actually a man.

It sounds like they might actually believe it.

loveyouradvice · 14/07/2018 23:01

What I never understand is how they believe they are speaking the truth when they say "Either you are working for the liberation of all or you are working for the liberation of none"..... when is it SO obvious that women and children lose rights if the TRAs gain all those they wish...

Floorplan · 14/07/2018 23:28

Absolutely Loveyour

thebewilderness · 15/07/2018 01:53

If they have come together to publicly condemn Lesbians the likelyhood that they are Feminists is a gynormous zero.

MillyTheKid · 15/07/2018 02:00

If they have come together to publicly condemn Lesbians the likelyhood that they are Feminists is a gynormous zero.

How do you explain the many lesbians on social media who didn't support the protest then? Are they fake lesbians?

OP posts:
LaSquirrel · 15/07/2018 02:08

Read the opening to the wordpress link Milly

We are a group of feminists, many of whom identify as lesbian or whose politics were influenced by lesbian culture. We are cisgender, we are non-binary and we are trans. All of us are active in the arts, community organising, the media and education. We have all benefited from the deep analysis, radical lifestyle and astonishing bravery of the lesbian feminists who came before us – actions that we understood to be about dismantling the patriarchy, liberating all women from gendered oppression and re-imagining the future.

The clue is in identifying as lesbian, let alone the rest of that list of BS.

If they have come together to publicly condemn Lesbians the likelyhood that they are Feminists is a gynormous zero.

I would add the likelihood that they were lesbians was about the same tbh.

thebewilderness · 15/07/2018 02:09

I do not know about Lesbians, Milly.
I know Feminism. Feminists do not join with men to condemn Lesbians.
It is antithetical to Feminism.

ArcheryAnnie · 15/07/2018 02:49

OK, I don't recognise many names on that list, but of the few I do recognise, I can spot at least two rape apologists (of the "I don't believe her" variety), and one male whose political energy has been devoted to championing violent porn, championing pimps, and dissing women's groups. It's not exactly something which inspires confidence in their judgement.

Oh, and they endorse Trans Heath Action, whose batshit mainfesto includes such gems as "We demand resources for hair removal anywhere on our bodies, and the option of local anesthetic during these procedures" (good to know your hip operation is on hold while a middle-class male working in IT has their chest hair lasered off on the public purse). and "We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners" (which presumably includes the 60+ rapists and violent sex offenders currently in the UK prison system who ID as trans).

What absolute ninnies.

MillyTheKid · 15/07/2018 02:51

Really? A feminist is never allowed to criticise another woman when she doesn't agree with her?
So many woman who disagree with the views commonly expressed on here seem to be classed as either a handmaiden, fake feminist or fake lesbian. If she is someone well known her music, acting, writing etc will probably also get trashed just for the sake of it. Any organisation that disagrees is homophobic.
Perhaps the situation isn't quite so black and white as people here would like to believe. Maybe some know it isn't but don't want to admit it. The truth is, if you look beyond this forum, that not every feminist or lesbian does agree.
There comes a point when you cannot just dismiss every single alternative feminist and lesbian view and have to admit that there are some lesbians and feminists who are concerned about some of the issues surrounding trans people but there are also some who are not. The lesbian reaction I saw online after the Pride protest was not universally 'that was wonderful' by any stretch of the imagination.
I know that muddies the 'we're the ones speaking up for lesbians' waters but that's the reality. There are feminists and lesbians who have alternative viewpoints.

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 15/07/2018 02:56

Feminists joining with men to publicly criticize Lesbians for speaking their opinion is antithetical to Feminism.
Your straw man argument is carelessly constructed.

GirlDownUnder · 15/07/2018 04:12

If your use of lesbian includes people with a penis then we are never going to agree on their alternative views.

LaSquirrel · 15/07/2018 05:38

There are feminists and lesbians who have alternative viewpoints.

I guess. On the one hand females who are pro-women (ie feminists), and some of those will be lesbians. On the other hand, females who will happily work alongside men to undermine the above.

Pick a side.

bigoldscaredycat · 15/07/2018 06:08

The signatories of this letter are as much feminists as I am a brain surgeon.

Hint - if you’re allying with men to speak out against women who have defended their rights you are literally the opposite of a feminist. You are a men’s rights activist.

Pratchet · 15/07/2018 06:59

Surely no one who actually believes that a man is a woman is a feminist. Feminists can have sympathy for men and women with sex dysphoria but none would sign up to this identity bullshit.

Pratchet · 15/07/2018 07:00

In fact, no true feminist

NotBadConsidering · 15/07/2018 07:01

Let's break it down:

many of whom identify as lesbian

Straight away there's a conflict. The protest argues you can't identify as a lesbian. A lesbian is a female homosexual. Clearly those attached to the statement don't believe so. Ergo they are immediately in conflict.

All of us are active in the arts, community organising, the media and education.

How is this relevant?Confused

We have all benefited from the deep analysis, radical lifestyle and astonishing bravery of the lesbian feminists who came before us

"...but we're about to ignore all that in the rest of this statement."

However, these views are expressed by many different people, cis, non-binary and trans. There was almost no mention of this. So we can only read this protest as a deliberate attack on trans women.

So the authors acknowledge the abuse but it is more important to them to put the blame on the lesbians for blaming the wrong people in their eyes? Are they saying they are in a better position than the lesbians themselves to tell us who is dishing out the abuse? And again, it wasn't an attack on trans people. It was a protest against the trans activists who are abusive.

It isn’t trans women who...[followed by various examples of bad behaviour]

No but it is trans activists who are responsible for "the cotton ceiling" and all it's associated public musings on the internet:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Lesbian feminists of all genders
small group of cis lesbians

Again, statements in conflict with the definition of lesbian, at the heart of the protestors' concerns.

in order to spread the same kind of dangerous lies about Trans women.

Not dangerous lies about trans women. Truth about what certain trans activists say to lesbians. Gaslighting. It's as if these people deny that people like Riley Dennis exist.

The irony is that the protestors failed to point out these obvious and active factors in the continued, structural oppression of women, trans and queer people here and abroad.

This is after the ramblings about G4 etc. So it would have been worthwhile if they'd have protested about all of the problems with Pride?! Organise your own protest about this sort of stuff if it's such a big deal!

Instead they hijacked a moment in which a vital yet threatened public service, the NHS, on its 70th anniversary, was leading from the front.

People have marched specifically for the NHS recently. I highly doubt this sets back the NHS when it was just one component of a non-NHS specific march. Besides, what is a protest supposed to do? They have to get themselves noticed. Would the authors had been happy for them to be in front of the NHS marchers if they had been protesting "obvious and active factors in the continued, structural oppression of women, trans and queer people here and abroad"? Make your bloody minds up.

we are here to remind the protesters that you can’t pick and choose your history

Interesting turn of phrase, given the historical definition of lesbian is being picked at and history is being revised with people being retroactively trans-identified.

There are many campaigns and acts of solidarity we can be engaged in, including

Oh yes, look after everyone else's rights but don't you dare stand up for your own rights. It's just not inclusive enough. Hmm

I would genuinely want to know if every single signature on that letter fully agrees with and would happily release the statement "a lesbian can have a penis. Any lesbian who refuses to have sex with someone with a penis is transphobic and a vagina fetishist". It would make their position a lot clearer and get rid of all the bull in between. Because a disagreement on this is what it fundamentally comes down to if you actually pay attention to the concerns of those women protesting.

NotBadConsidering · 15/07/2018 07:05

Its*

GreatRailwayMaps · 15/07/2018 07:18

Trans women are an essential part of an intersectional and successful feminist struggle.

Really? In what way are they essential?

AndhowcouldIeverrefuse · 15/07/2018 07:22

Great post NotBadConsidering

Loopytiles · 15/07/2018 07:24

“Perhaps the situation isn't quite so black and white as people here would like to believe.“

There are “black and white” issues: some of us want to retain single sex services and facilities.

Not to be called “cis”.

And don’t think women should be criticised or harassed for not wishing to share facilities and services or have sex with people with penises.

TheBiologicalWoman · 15/07/2018 07:38

Fantastic post Notbadconsidering

How can they be feminists if they would see the removal of safe spaces and rights for women and girls?

bigoldscaredycat · 15/07/2018 07:48

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BettyFloop · 15/07/2018 08:05

Excellent post NotBadConsidering

I’m also keen to know how males who identify as female are an essential component of feminism.

Me too. What, exactly, is the positive contribution they make to the lives of women and girls?

GeorgeFayne · 15/07/2018 08:16

Anyone else tired of the phrase "identify as?" People I know who are gay don't say, "I identify as gay." They just are. My friends who are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, atheists, etc. just state "I am a Christian or I am Hindu."

Would a doctor inspire confidence in her patients if she said, "I identify as a surgeon." Would you really let her operate on you? If the cop pulling you over said, "I identify as a police officer," would you allow him to put you in handcuffs? The phrase inherently suggests something might not be legitimate, possibly a sham.

Our language has been corrupted and it has meaning and consequence. We have to take it back.

Homosexual females ARE lesbians, they don't "identify" as them.

busyboysmum · 15/07/2018 08:16

I suppose as nowadays the meaning of words has been changed to include anyone who identifies as such then if they identify as feminists they may well think they are.

But this renders the words meaningless anyone. If everyone can identify as a lesbian then there is no meaningful definition of the word.

But I agree that from my viewpoint women who gang up with men to denounce women are not feminists.

Women who centre males in their feminism are not feminists.

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